25mm Rebates

[contractman]

Morning

There is currently a discussion going on in our office with regard fire doors with 25mm rebated frames.

I have searched on here and found a few posts, basically confirming this was satisfactory in the 1980's and the idea was superseded by strips and seals, after a rebate failed a test

However its now 2021 and would be grateful if one of the FD experts on here could confirm if doors with 25mm rebates are compliant now, especially for sleeping accommodation (Hotel Rooms)

Personally I am uncomfortable with the hotel rooms, riser doors and store cupboards doors relying on rebates in protected corridors.

Any clear advice would be appreciated

 

Thank you

 

 

[Neil ashdown]

No problem with the timber fire door frames having 25mm rebates but perimeter intumescent fire seals and smoke seals are essential.  I think you won't find that listed as a legal requirement but in terms of fire door compliance with the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 it would be very difficult, I believe, to justify the absence of these seals. Especially where sleeping accommodation is present and to protect means of escape.

Check out the Intumescent Fire Seals Association at  ifsa.org.uk 

[AnthonyB]

It's possible to keep the original doors if the FRA can justify it - several large hotel chains have fire doors of this original type to their bedrooms, only upgrading stair and cross corridor doors - and one large provider when faced with enforcement action to add strips and smoke seals to bedroom doors took the issue to determination and won and the enforcing authority had to withdraw the enforcement notice and legal action as a result. Determinations do not set precedents, but do show that it is possible to follow a different course of action, the current legislation does not expect all aspects of an existing premises to be immediately brought up to current standards and the FRA will determine if there difference between the new & old is such it presents an intolerable risk.

Are intumescent seals and smoke brushes good - yes! Do they result in far better fire doorset performance - yes! But did old style fire doors in premises that suffered major fires perform well enough to protect the occupiers and large parts of the property - yes on many, many occasions!

Even in flats the draft for the new fire safety guidance (for smaller blocks - the guidance is being split into two documents) allows original fire doors to be retained in certain situations.

Hotels in the 1980's usually only had corridor detection and it was found that rebate only fire doors would pyrolyze & char around the edges and whilst still intact and holding back a degree of fire/heat and smoke the smoke produced from the pyrolysis of the door was tarry, thick and heavy leading to a smoke layer in the corridor that  wasn't always high enough to activate a ceiling detector. As a result the 1988 revision of the fire alarm standard BS5839-1 introduced for the first time Categories of fire alarm system of which the new minimum category of detection (L3) required detection in bedrooms (in fact any room opening into an escape route) so the alarm would sound way before the old style fire door would be compromised. Most hotels are now even more protected with L2 or even L1 systems and this has formed part of the mitigation case for some hotels.

[contractman]

On 11/11/2021 at 16:15, Neil ashdown said:

No problem with the timber fire door frames having 25mm rebates but perimeter intumescent fire seals and smoke seals are essential.  I think you won't find that listed as a legal requirement but in terms of fire door compliance with the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 it would be very difficult, I believe, to justify the absence of these seals. Especially where sleeping accommodation is present and to protect means of escape.

Check out the Intumescent Fire Seals Association at  ifsa.org.uk 

Thank you

 

[contractman]

On 11/11/2021 at 20:25, AnthonyB said:

It's possible to keep the original doors if the FRA can justify it - several large hotel chains have fire doors of this original type to their bedrooms, only upgrading stair and cross corridor doors - and one large provider when faced with enforcement action to add strips and smoke seals to bedroom doors took the issue to determination and won and the enforcing authority had to withdraw the enforcement notice and legal action as a result. Determinations do not set precedents, but do show that it is possible to follow a different course of action, the current legislation does not expect all aspects of an existing premises to be immediately brought up to current standards and the FRA will determine if there difference between the new & old is such it presents an intolerable risk.

Are intumescent seals and smoke brushes good - yes! Do they result in far better fire doorset performance - yes! But did old style fire doors in premises that suffered major fires perform well enough to protect the occupiers and large parts of the property - yes on many, many occasions!

Even in flats the draft for the new fire safety guidance (for smaller blocks - the guidance is being split into two documents) allows original fire doors to be retained in certain situations.

Hotels in the 1980's usually only had corridor detection and it was found that rebate only fire doors would pyrolyze & char around the edges and whilst still intact and holding back a degree of fire/heat and smoke the smoke produced from the pyrolysis of the door was tarry, thick and heavy leading to a smoke layer in the corridor that  wasn't always high enough to activate a ceiling detector. As a result the 1988 revision of the fire alarm standard BS5839-1 introduced for the first time Categories of fire alarm system of which the new minimum category of detection (L3) required detection in bedrooms (in fact any room opening into an escape route) so the alarm would sound way before the old style fire door would be compromised. Most hotels are now even more protected with L2 or even L1 systems and this has formed part of the mitigation case for some hotels.

Thank you