FD30 or FD60 door?

[Di Rock]

Dear all: I live in a house with 4 flats.: Flat 1 (ground), Flat 2 (1st floor), Flat 3 (2nd floor, my flat) and I have recently bought the top flat (Flat 4). The entrance doors for my 2 flats (3 and 4) are in the 2nd floor, as Flat 4 has the stairs within the property.  I only have to open a wall in a corridor to communicate them and put a fire door there.

 

Now the Building control team in the council said it should be an F60 door, but I have been advised by a fire expert I only need an F30, because it is not in the communal corridor, it will be in between the 2 properties that we own, nobody can go further up in the building. Could you please advise what kind of door we need? F30 or F60? 

 

If you had a reference to show the council, that would be amazing. 

 

Many thanks and regards

 

Di

[Tom Sutton]

Your proposals are difficult to understand you need a detail drawing to explain fully what you intend to do but what ever you intend to do I cannot see why a 60 min fire door would be required, I would ask the building control why, also ask for a reference.

[Di Rock]

Dear Mr Sutton

Many thanks for this. Please see attached a drawing of the area, in red where it says "wall we want to open" is where the fire door will go. 

We own the 2 flats, although for council tax purposes they remain as 2 dwellings. This is because to unify them we had to demolish one kitchen and we may want to sell in the future (take door and build wall again). 

I hope it makes sense. Please do ask if unclear. 

Best wishes and thanks again for your time

 

Di

option 1.pdf

[Tom Sutton]

It appears you want to convert the two flats into a maisonette with the option of  returning to the status quo if you choose later. I cannot give a definitive answer without a physical inspection but providing all the doors to habitual rooms meet the required fire resistance I cannot see why the building control would not accept it. 

[Di Rock]

Many thanks. What they say is that between the 2 flats there must be a fire door, and it has to be F60, not F30. This has massive implications for the wall holding it, and I do not know what they are basing their decision on. You advised to ask them for the reference, but I was trying to find out myself as I have found this department in my area are not the most helpful, unfortunately. So if you have any reference for this, I would appreciate this. 

 

Many thanks

 

di

[Tom Sutton]

The problem is what guidance are they using if it is a house converted into flats then they should be using HOUSING – FIRE SAFETY Guidance on fire safety provisions for certain types of existing housing if they are purpose built flats then they should be using Fire safety in purpose-built blocks of flats each require different standards. Try to find out which one they are using.

[Di Rock]

Dear safelincs,

Thanks so much for your help up till now. So  following your advice, I asked Building Control what legislation they were using to advise that we needed an F60 door and they sent this doc:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/832631/Approved_Document_B__fire_safety__volume_1_-_2019_edition.pdf

I have tried to digest this and I found their definition of "building" in the glossary is a bit starnge: "Any permanent or temporary building but not any other kind of structure or erection. A reference to a building includes a reference to part of a building", so I guess that my two flats can be separate buildings (?!) . If that is true, in the box of page 136, it says 

"In a compartment wall separating buildings: Same as for the wall in which the door is fitted, but a minimum of 60 minutes

 In a compartment wall: a. if it separates a flat from a space in common use E 30"

However, earlier on in the document, it says:

6.6 In a converted building with a maximum of three storeys, a minimum REI 30 fire resistance could be accepted for elements of structure if the means of escape conform to the provisions of Section 3 (page 19 onwards). 

It is really hard to understand this process for a lay person, I really value your advice.  Thanks for your patience. 

Best wishes

Di

 

 

 

 

[Tom Sutton]

It appears they are treating the situation as two flats and applying approved document B (Fire Safety) which requires every flat to be compartmentalised to a 60 minutes standard except the front door which should be FD30s fire door. The theory is any person in the flat will be safe for 60 minutes which should be sufficient time for the FRS to attend and extinguish the fire.

The FD30s front door may appear an a nominally but a fire in the flat of origin has to burn through the FD30s fire door into the common area and the through the front doors of the other  flats giving sixty minutes in total.