FD 30 door replacement mandated?

[AnthonyB]

Current benchmarks would require FD30S. The external door does not need to be a fire door unless an external escape route is nearby

[Guest Panos]

Hi
I live in a private flat along with about 20 other flats. I'm owner of the flat. The flats were built in 1980s and all have their original front doors leading into a communal hallway. The property management company have written to all residents and informed them that they must replace their existing front doors with FD 30 standard front doors at the owners expense. Are they allowed to mandate the fitment of FD 30 doors in an existing building? My door met the BS when it was constructed but that doesn't mean that I have to change the door in an existing property every time that the regulations change, am I correct?
Thanks

[AnthonyB]

No it doesn't and leaseholders have overturned this at Tribunal in the past (especially where the doors were only visually inspected from one side and an arbitrary judgement made). Being 80's there is a fair chance these are already FD30S doors that might only need minor changes (e.g. if they use concealed chain closers they need changing to EN1154 overhead closers). The guidance they should be following is here: 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fire-safety-in-purpose-built-blocks-of-flats

 

[Guest front door fire doors]

Hi, any advice would be appreciated,

My landlord is a Housing association , we live in a low rise block , 3 floors including ground , 2 flats per floor, front doors of flats facing each other,  a single stairwell for the block,  we currently have front doors that were fitted sometime in the late 90s however they do not appear to have a kite mark, our landlord is in the process of fitting new fire doors, the appearance of the proposed door is awful, we also feel the design of the door is inappropriate for our homes and believe the door will make our homes vulnerable , the area we live in is not great, the doors are PAS 24 2016 compliant, it is our understanding that this level only provides basic level of security from attack, the proposed doors have  P1A glass and a thumb turn lock the doors to our homes are secluded so we do not believe the doors to be appropriate,

We have asked for the doors to be changed to a solid door as the doors have yet to be made, our landlord has refused ,having looked online the information regarding the law is at times confusing it seems a lot of the fire regs are aimed at HMOs were not sure if legally our landlord has to change the doors ? and if there is a higher level of security than PAS 24 2016 ? and as tenants if our current doors are compliant with current fire regs would we need to have them changed ?  any advice/information would be appreciated , thank you

[AnthonyB]

They are unlikely to require replacement based on age of install, third party certification & the related marking of fire doors isn't mandatory however many organisations are insisting on replacement in any case because they can't prove the history of the door (despite lack of self closers being the bigger fire door issue in Grenfell which kicked off all the current mania on doors).

You can get several different visual styles of fire door so as to suit aesthetics of different locations (& also of different security grades) however it sounds like the HA is going for the simplest, plainest and cheapest doorsets it can get away with!

[JGr]

The decorative surrounds to doors, architraves, are acceptable. It is only timber panels or other combustible materials over 1/32 inch in thickness applied to walls/ ceilings that is not acceptable in a common areas (protected route). As for fire doors, a well fitting 44mm solid core doors ( with 25mm x 44mm screwed and glued stops ) fire door approved in the past will generally outperform and last some of the newer doors that have come onto the market in latter years.  Often old decorative panelled entrance doors were upgraded with fire rated infill  on the internal (flat) side. The risk is, if the upgrade was conducted between the 1950's and the late 1970's it will be a an asbestos containing material.  I known GLC and others tested this upgrade arrangement for listed doors and they passed the fire tests applicable at the time.  

[Guest Rachel]

Hi, we also have been asked to ensure our flat front doors meet fire safety requirements...the only thing is that everyone is confused about what doors and frames are required.  Ours is a purpose built Victorian block of flats.  The communal areas on the ground floors are enclosed, but the stories above (it is another 4 stories) are open to fresh air.  My door has been replaced within the last 4 years before i bought it.  I've weighed the door and it's about 35kg, so I believe at a minimum it's likely to be a FD30 door.  It has no intrumescent or smoke strips attached, nor are there any on the frame.  There is however space on the frame to put them.  The letterbox is attached to the outside of the door so no hole cut into the door, just screwed in. I understand that I need to check the hinges and replace if necessary and attach a suitable self closer, but do I need to replace the door itself?  One of the another tenant who owns several flats has been advised that they need to replace the doors to FD30S doors and will be required to change the frame also at a cost of £1500 per door.  Is this really necessary for me too?

[AnthonyB]

Flat front doors to open air in balcony approach flats do not usually have to be fire doors unless there is only only one direction of escape along the balcony requiring someone to pass the front door of the flat on fire.

[Guest Alan]

can anyone advise on checking front doors of flats please,all doors lead out into communal hallway,not sure under current legislation if doors are legal as fd30 (fire only) can have larger gaps at bottom than fd30s (fire and smoke),so basically if the sticker on door edge states fd30 but has a large gap is it legal or does it need to be fd30s with a small gap?

 

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

Flat entrance doors opening onto communal areas inside the block would be FD30(s) and self-closing as a minimum.   Refer to BS 8214: 2016 Timber-based Fire Door Assemblies - Code of practice for guidance on smoke seals and threshold gaps and seals. https://bookshop.bmtrada.com/bookshop/view/1f43261a-1100-489d-8c5e-f4673ff17739 

[Mike North]

Most modern 30 and 60 doors are manufactured as non-smoke doors, it only the inclusion of the smoke seals in the intumescent strips that make it a (S) door.  The use of a FD30 door is not in accordance with Approved Document B Vol 2 2019 Amendment 2020 for a flat entrance door, and BC would in all probability not sign it off, if however, it is an existing door that has been picked up in a FRA I suggest that you read Communities and local government. Determination on the suitability and sufficiency of  a fire risk assessment in a hotel in respect of the  adequacy of the existing bedroom fire doors. You may be able to argue that there is no requirement until the door needs replacement.

[developerjake]

I'm in this situation, except it's really messed up... I am a leaseholder in a block of Council flats. The building is 3-stories, and ~9m tall.

Five years ago my block of flats had all of the doors replaced (£880 each) "in accordance with fire safety regulations".

They said that these refurbishment works included "replacement door and frame (door set) which are compliant 30 FD 4 panelled doors along with the associated ironmongery which includes door viewers, security chains, letter plate and numerals".

After they did the work, we looked at our doors and found that they are FD30S doors, in that they also include the intumescent strips and smoke seals.

That's all fine... but fast-forward to today, and now they are trying to replace our FD30S door sets again, this time... with FD30S door sets (again).

When we asked why, they said the following:

"The current doors to a number of flats within [REDACTED] are not fully certified FD30s door sets, and while I can see some of the components we would expect to see in an FD30S doorset, they have not been installed together and tested as a complete set to achieve at least 30 minutes fire resistance from both sides. For this reason it has been recommended that these doors are replaced with complete certified composite FD30s doorsets, as per current legislation."

Is it me, or is this insane?

We have in writing from the Council that all of our doors are FD30 rated doors, and were invoiced when these works were completed. We don't specifically have anything saying they are smoke doors, but you can clearly see that they are.

We have tried to get basic information from the Council regarding these works for a year. They have ignored all of our requests, both written and verbal, even thoughout the consultation period. To summarize these issues:

• When the FRA was done
• We don't have a copy of the FRA or know what's on it
• We don't have a itemized breakdown of costs which explains why the works are 480% more expensive than last time (£4,200 per door set vs £880 5 years ago)
• We don't know what regulation has changed requiring FD30S door sets installed as independent parts to be entirely replaced by composite FD30S door sets

The Council and their contractor continue to ignore all of the tenants and our requests, and are pressing forward with the works as of last week and intending to invoice us, and have us pay for these works. It's insanity!!

Can anyone help us to understand why our existing FD30S door sets are not adequate? Are there actually new regulations that require do FD30S door sets to be replaced like-for-like with composite door sets if they were not installed all at the same time?

If that is true and our doors are not up to current legislation, thus requiring replacement, aren't the Council thereby liable for a criminal offence having left all of the tenants here at risk of death from fire (The Fire Safety (England) Regulations 2022 - clause 1.2)?

I also noticed that the Fire Safety (England) Regulations 2022: fire door guidance - clause 6.5, states that since 23 January 2023 any Fire Risk Assessments must include checks on flat front entrance doors on both sides - we know for a fact that this has not been done.

Please Save Our Souls! 🙏🙏🙏 Any help of advice will be a God-send as they are undertaking the works now!

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

This might be helpful:   https://www.dhfonline.org.uk/media/fire_safety/library/mhclg-advice-note-16.pdf  This advice note has now been withdrawn by UK Gov but may provide some insight into how this situation may have arisen.

You don't say whether the existing fire doors are timber or composite?  I understand the issues in the government sponsored fire door tests were with Composite fire door-sets  https://www.gov.uk/guidance/fire-door-investigation

Maybe an independent expert (fire risk assessor/fire door consultant) has been consulted and the advice given is being followed?

Why are the new doors so costly?

This document, updated recently, provides guidance about fire doors in blocks of flats  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fire-safety-in-purpose-built-blocks-of-flats

Edited May 31, 2023 by Neil Ashdown MAFDI
To correct an error

[Guest Nicola M]

Hi, 

I have a ground floor flat in a three storey block which was built between 2005- 2007. The management company have contacted me to say that I need to have my flat front door (which opens into hall/bottom of stairs) inspected and if necessary upgrading to meet current fire regulations. They have asked for relevant certificates to demonstrate it meets standards. I have had a company out and they cannot identify the door so have said I need a new fire door at a cost of £1500. From my reading of government guidance/regulations it looks like I do not have to a) upgrade the door if it is the original door and meets the standards from 2005/07 and b) demonstrate a third party certificate (although this is preferable not mandatory. Is this correct? Any advice would be appreciated as £1500 is a hefty amount to pay if the current door will suffice. 

Many thanks in advance 

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

It is not absolutely necessary to identify a fire door to particular fire resistance performance certification, so it would be interesting to see the fire door inspection report from the 'company'. 

This latest Government guidance might be helpful https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1147631/A_guide_to_making_your_small_block_of_flats_safe_from_fire.pdf   Flat entrance doors are covered from page 19 onwards.

[Mike North]

As Neil says, I would love to have a copy if the report