Double door with gap in the middle

[Guest Nick]

Hello,

Please see the attached picture and advise on what could be used to close the gap from your product list and how to fit (do we need to re-hang door etc)?

There are a few doors with the gaps varying from 4mm to 8mm.

Many thanks

Nick

[Safelincs]

Hi Nick

I contacted expert Neil Ashdown CertFDI from Fire Doors Complete Ltd, who advised the following:

 

'The gap at the meeting edges must A) be 2mm to 4mm and B) filled with cold smoke seals so that the brush or blade of the seal touches the opposing door edge. Its OK to interrupt seal for mortice lock/latch and flush bolts.

He should remove one or both leaves and re-hang to reduce the gap accordingly. There is no ‘one size fits all’ method to do this but the following are the usual solutions:

a)      Pack behind hinge blades with intumescent card. Easiest but will not resolve larger gaps and would increase gap at hanging edge.

b)      Cut off the lipping at the hanging stile of the door leaf (just the slave leaf should do, if that’s possible) and fit a thicker (no more than 18mm thick) hardwood lipping. The lipping must be securely fixed with PVA wood adhesive, screws, pins (sink the heads, fill and position centrally in the door thickness) and fixed flush with the face of the door without gaps. He must not cut into the door’s timber framing behind the existing lipping because that would weaken the door construction.

c)       Loosen one of the door frame jambs and pack with timber folding-wedges to reduce over-all width. Re-fix and fill any gaps at the wall interface with mineral wool / intumescent sealant. If using fire-foam make sure it has fire performance test evidence for use with softwood door frames. Some foams are suitable only for linear gaps in walls, there’s a new one called Blue60 but I am waiting for the product data sheet.'

 

I hope this helps

Harry

[Guest Mrs P]

Hi. My joiner has just fitted our internal French doors and there is a LARGE gap going all the round the frame, inbetween and even larger gap under the doors. 

He says this is how they are suppose to be. I've asked for a bead or something to hide the gaps. I asked if the doors have been measured incorrectly, he says not to both of them. 

Any suggestions please. 

[Tom Sutton]

Assuming this door is not protecting a means of escape, then there is no recommended gaps around a door. However when I was involved in the building game many years ago, a general rule of thumb was the gap should be a thickness of the old penny which is about 2/3mm and the threshold gap as small as possible providing it doesn't catch on the floor.

For fire doors it is 3mm +/- 1mm for the gap each side and the top of the door also fitted with smoke seals if cold smoke control is required. The threshold gap of 8mm or less is usually accepted, however if cold smoke control is required then it must be 3mm +/- 1mm, providing it doesn't catch on the floor, otherwise cold smoke seals should be fitted.

[Guest John Alexander]

Hi, 

As a Carpenter, I'm often required to fit and/or renew intumescent seals on FD60 fire doors in local schools etc. 

My question is this: Does a fire and smoke seal need to be totally replaced if a section or sections of the rubber fin/s have been broken or deliberately pulled of/torn by school kids? Also, around the locks on FD60 doors there was originally a cut-down (length ways) fire and cold smoke seal fitted which are often pulled of or torn my children.

This seems to be an ongoing debate amongst my circle of associates and I'd like to clear the air in this matter.

Looking forward to your response.

 

Many thanks,

John Alexander

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

Hi John,

The first thing to say concerns smoke seals. If the students are deliberately pulling the fins away from the intumescent seal then it would be worth considering fitting plain fire only intumescent seals instead. A smoke seal will be required but a compression seal, bat-wing type seal or smoke seal in a carrier fitted to the top edge of the rebate stop may be less easy to damage. Try a sample piece for suitability before installation as some seals may interfere with the self-closing of the door, but clearly that won't help at square meeting edges (sorry).  I would suggest you consult the Intumescent Fire Seals Association at https://www.ifsa.org.uk/documents/  and  https://www.ifsa.org.uk/advice/ for advice

Regarding the intumescent fire seals, these may be required to bypass interruptions for hardware (such as at locks and hinges) or interruption may be allowed. Only by consulting the installation data for the fire door and fire seal can you be sure of the requirement. Below is an image showing a common application of fire seals to an FD60 door assembly, so you can see one seal may bypass at hinge blades but as the lock is morticed centrally the seal would be cut around the lock face plate. Short lengths and cut pieces of fire seals are easily removed due to the nature of their self-adhesive fixing method. In many instances the door maintainer will use small gauge panel pins to hold the seals securely - so that may be an answer for you? If you intend to use intumescent mastic instead, consult the product manufacturer for advice.

When replacing intumescent fire seals, be aware that different seals may react at different temperature ranges in a fire situation. Therefore, unless you can be sure of like for like replacement you should replace all seals of the door assembly together. It would be wise to speak to the seal manufacturer for information about the above before going ahead.   

As a footnote, I did hear of one case where a student was disciplined and the police involved because willful damage was caused to a fire door which may be? a beach of the Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order 2005 but I can't confirm the story as true! 

[Guest Dale]

On 05/05/2017 at 06:32, Safelincs said:

Hi Nick

I contacted expert Neil Ashdown CertFDI from Fire Doors Complete Ltd, who advised the following:

 

'The gap at the meeting edges must A) be 2mm to 4mm and B) filled with cold smoke seals so that the brush or blade of the seal touches the opposing door edge. Its OK to interrupt seal for mortice lock/latch and flush bolts.

He should remove one or both leaves and re-hang to reduce the gap accordingly. There is no ‘one size fits all’ method to do this but the following are the usual solutions:

a)      Pack behind hinge blades with intumescent card. Easiest but will not resolve larger gaps and would increase gap at hanging edge.

b)      Cut off the lipping at the hanging stile of the door leaf (just the slave leaf should do, if that’s possible) and fit a thicker (no more than 18mm thick) hardwood lipping. The lipping must be securely fixed with PVA wood adhesive, screws, pins (sink the heads, fill and position centrally in the door thickness) and fixed flush with the face of the door without gaps. He must not cut into the door’s timber framing behind the existing lipping because that would weaken the door construction.

c)       Loosen one of the door frame jambs and pack with timber folding-wedges to reduce over-all width. Re-fix and fill any gaps at the wall interface with mineral wool / intumescent sealant. If using fire-foam make sure it has fire performance test evidence for use with softwood door frames. Some foams are suitable only for linear gaps in walls, there’s a new one called Blue60 but I am waiting for the product data sheet.'

 

I hope this helps

Harry

Harry,

Would the same gap interuption be allowable at the flush bolts in a double door?  Is there any reference info on this?  Our chippy installed the doors as "push-pull" and client decided they needed to have flush bolts and dead locks.  The chippy installed the flush bolts into the grooves where the intumescent strips should go.  Client is saying doors need to be replaced now.  They need to be safe but I am hoping to avoid the cost of replacing them if at all possible.

Dale.

 

 

[Neil ashdown]

When fitting flush bolts to double leaf doors only the active leaf should be fitted with combined intumescent fire and smoke seals. The flush bolt should be fitted to the slave leaf so that the seals by-pass the flush bolt rather than be interrupted by it. 

[Guest Eamonn Linnane]

I am carrying out fire door checks on existing doors. There are no certs for the same doors.

The meeting of the double doors have fire and smoke strips on both sides. one side is rebated in deeper to the door.

Please advise is this correct.

[Tom Sutton]

Clould you provide images or drawings of how the intumescent seals and smoke seals are fitted.

[Liamoakleaf]

Hi guys, 

 

any advice on how to router the intumescent strip into the rebated edge of a double door set. Is this possible? 
 

thanks

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

Here is an example of 10mm intumescent seals fitted to rebated meeting edges. 

But the installer should check the specific requirements with the particular fire door manufacturer.