Fire doors in a domestic 3 storey house

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

I would advise a thumb turn on the inside so that your teenage daughter can unlock from the inside without needing to search for the key.  The Fire Safety Order does not apply inside your own private home but as its an FD30s door your may like to fit a fire rated lock. Personally, I would.

[Guest LynR]

Thanks Neil. We have used all fire rated handles/hinges etc on the fire doors. 

I was just worried about the door being locked as an escape route, rather than as a means of containing a fire. She won't be locking herself in it. 

Thanks all.

[Tom Sutton]

If there is nobody in the room when the door is locked there will be nobody requiring it as a MoE.

[Guest MartinP]

My son live in a top floor maisonette with the bedrooms on the top (3rd) floor.  The bedroom doors are fire doors.  He want to put a cat flap into the bedroom door which would clearly be against the safety regulations.  We do, however, have a radio linked smoke alarm system with a detector in the stairway on each floor.  Does this affect the rules which would allow the fitting of the cat flap?

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

Hi MartinP,

Does your son own the maisonette or does he rent from a housing association or other landlord?

[Guest MartinP]

Hi Neil,

I'm the landlord  ? The freehold is owned by Lambeth council.  

 

 

[Tom Sutton]

Check out https://envirograf.com/product/animal-door-flap/ and speak to envirograf they may be able to help. You will also have to speak to Lambeth council.  

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

You can get advice and information about fire safety provisions for blocks of flats here https://www.local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/fire-safety-purpose-built-04b.pdf including fire doors.

[Guest JoD]

Hello 

We have had dormas adding to an existing attic I had been advised by the architect and the builder that I needed a fire door on the attic and the garage door which we have done we have smoke alarms on every landing level and kitchen. I have now been told after all doors are installed and painted that we need to suitably treat all doors off the staircase including ground floor level we were previously told this was just on the internal side and was just habtal rooms ( excluding bathrooms) but don’t seem to be getting this confirmation in writing now. We also being asked for a suitable application certificate. This is now going to be a huge expense also I am confused exactly what doors need doing and struggling to get clarification. They are also various products on the market varying in price I have no idea! Also these products talk about fd30 protection but from what I am reading on here it says fd20 what is the difference. Who is the best person to speak to for help and advice? Can we put anything in the attic as an escape route or add another fire alarm in the attic bedroom? 

Thanks very much 

Jod 

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

In England and Wales, the Building Regulations Approved Document B Fire Safety for dwelling houses applies:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/485420/BR_PDF_AD_B1_2013.pdf

[Tom Sutton]

This project is subject to the Building Regulations and the architect and the builder are required to carry out the requirements of the building control inspector (BCI) to get the completion certificate, which they need to give you on completion of the contract, to prove the works meets the requirements of the building regulations.

Two storey dwelling houses were fitted with FD20 doors, and substantial, well fittings standard doors were considered to meet that standard. (Nominal door) However, if they should fail, it was considered the occupants could drop from open windows to escape. However, a three storey dwelling house, escape via a window was considered unacceptable, because of the increased possibility of serious injury, so a 30-minute standard means of escape was required. 

The architect will have produced drawings most probably according to Approved Document B (fire safety) volume 1: Dwellinghouses which would show a means of escape from the third floor to the front door meeting a 30 minutes standard, also the door to the integral garage needs to be an FD30s with a self-closer.

All habitable rooms, (excluding bathrooms) off this escape route should be fitted with full FD 30 doors but it appears the architect has agreed with the BCI that these doors can be upgraded, except the loft door. Fire Doors are tested from both sides because when hung, either side could be facing the risk side, but this is not the case for existing doors because the risk side is easily identified, so I would argue that only the risk side need to be upgraded,  but it looks like the architect has not convinced the BCI.

It is understood by many that manufacturers consider it does not make economic sense to get doors tested to FD20, because D30 fire doors will meet both standards so you will find very few for sale. Also because in the past, unscrupulous manufacturers claimed their FD30 doors, including other fire safety products, had been tested, which was not true, so now inspectors require documented proof.  

Without full access to all the details, I cannot give a definitive reply and the best advice you can get will be from your local building control.

[Guest Andy]

Hi can I ask something. If you are doing an open plan layout and kitchen on the ground floor, can you create the fire wall Nd door protection on the first floor? 

[Tom Sutton]

Not sure what you mean Andy could you please elaborate.

[Guest WBurns]

Hi I've just moved into a 3 story house with FD30 doors throughout, all the doors have chain closers but have wedges holding the doors open or the chains disconnected

I want to be able to keep the doors open like they are but close automatically if there's smoke

Is there a way to have magnetic door retainers linked to the wired smoke / heat detectors?

Thanks

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

This web page may be of use https://www.safelincs.co.uk/dorgard-and-other-fire-door-retainers/?fga=true&gclid=Cj0KCQjwpPHoBRC3ARIsALfx-_KyYyOV-N89A62lUXg5rqol-n7fyaLCx-wcVIx2tZaAZIVSKZrvQqsaArbQEALw_wcB 

[Guest WBurns]

Hi thank you for your response

Would it be possible to use these

https://www.safelincs.co.uk/doormouse-wall-mounted-firedoor-holders/

And have them connected to the link wire of the smoke detectors or would I have to use the acoustic version?

https://www.safelincs.co.uk/geofire-agrippa-acoustic-door-holder/

I would prefer a proper wired version over a sound activated version but I can only find details for using them with a fire panel which I think is over the top for a house

I've also tried finding out how the smoke detector link wire works, is it low & has 230v AC on activation?

If it does work that way I could use a normally closed contactor in the consumer unit for the feed to the door retainers

Or are there any alternatives to having a fire doors in a 3 story house?

Thanks for any assistance

[Tom Sutton]

All doors except external doors in a single occupancy domestic home should be FD20 doors and as you have FD30 doors you meet the requirement. Fire doors do not require self closers except any doors between the house and an integral garage. So you do not need to fit, hold open devices but if you do wish to fit them, then this is the wrong forum for you, check out fire alarm engineers forum http://firealarmengineers.com/forum/. 

Check out Approved Document B (fire safety) volume 1: dwellinghouses.

[Guest Paula]

Hi Tom 

I live in a 3 storeys house and downstairs we have kitchen and dining room and from dining room there is a door to the garden. Currently there are double fire doors in between the kitchen and dining room albeit it is a one big room so we keep them open at all the times. There is a separate door from kitchen and separate door from dining room into the hallway. My question is can we remove the double internal doors between the kitchen and the diner and obstruct the one out of the kitchen to hallway?  We will still have the one from dining room leasing onto the hallway and as said before this is one big room. Thank you for your advice. 

[Tom Sutton]

It is impossible to give a definitive answer without a intimate knowledge of the premises without plans or a survey of the premises it is impossible to conduct an acceptable means of escape design. Your sketchy description is nowhere enough. 

[Guest Billy Horan]

On the above point am I reading this correctly that the regulation within a 3 storey dwellinghouse is that a fire door needs to be in place but they do NOT need to be self closing (on all occasions)

 

PS I am in Scotland so unsure is refs are consistent across the UK

[AnthonyB]

I'd double check Scottish Technical Standards as they are increasingly different from England & Wales in may aspects.

[Guest Fire doors]

Hi, I have an open plan barn with an odd layout across 3 floors. Two of the floors are ground level (the garden slopes). The very bottom floor is the kitchen with an open plan layout to the middle ground floor via a glass atrium. Then there's an open plan staircase to the top floor which has bedrooms. My question is as there are effectively 2 ground floors do I still need fire doors? There's no way to fit them on the open plan areas so would fitting on the top floor rooms help me to comply with building regs?

[Tom Sutton]

Without a survey of detailed plans it is impossible to say but when it was built it must have receive a completion certificate I would suggest you contact the local building control. 

[Guest Stu]

Hi Tom,

I'm just in the process of buying a 15 year old 3 storey dwelling house. All the internal doors are Fire doors and all are fitted with self closers including, as you would expect,  the one to the internal garage. Is this normal practice or over engineering?  With the exception of the internal garage door self closer would it be acceptable, in theory, to convert the others to standard non closing fire doors? Thanks.

[AnthonyB]

Self closers to interior doors used to be a Building Regs requirement, but was relaxed years ago. It would be no issue to remove closers to all other than the door to the garage.