Do converted flats require fire risk assessment?

[Guest LindaSigur]

We own an apartment in a house converted in into five apartments in 2000. From reading your information we are not an HMO and only the communal areas are subject to Fire Regulations. Am I also correct that we do not legally require a fire safety assessment?
Our Management Company has informed us this was needed and it has been carried out. One outcome is the recommendation of installing a fire alarm. Am I correct that neither is required by law?

[Tom Sutton]

You do not require a fire risk assessment of your flat but a FRA is legally required for the common areas. The Management Company is correct and the FRA is required by law which could include a fire alarm.

Check out http://www.cieh.org/uploadedFiles/Core/Policy/Publications_and_information_services/Policy_publications/Publications/National_fire_safety_guidance_08.pdf and http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1541/contents/made

[Guest]

I have a house which has been converted into 3 flats in 1989 I believe it is classed as a house in multiple occupation do i need a fire risk assessment

[Tom Sutton]

Yes the common areas are subject to The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 and part of this is you have to conduct a fire risk assessment of the common areas. Also you are subject to the Housing Act 2004 and if you are a HMO you may need to be registered, check out with the local council.

[Guest Eleanor]

Hello, 

Same as above, I live in a house converted into 3 flats in the 80s. The last inspection was done in 2007. There have been no changes to the common areas since then. The freeholder is pushing to have a new inspection done (and also pushing for a new asbestos inspection, last done in 2009).

Can I refuse? How frequently do fire inspections have to be carried out?

[AnthonyB]

A fire risk assessment must be reviewed regularly and updated if there are any changes to risks, processes, people, structure, layout, etc

No set timescale exists for a review, but the benchmark standard based on court cases and enforcement notices indicates annual as a minimum. Some premises have FRAs that are several years old, but as they have been reviewed annually and nothing has changed, have been deemed adequate.

So if they are just commissioning a review then they are in the right as it's grossly overdue, although if using an external provider most would (rightly) insist on a full reassessment after an 11 year gap

[Guest Const]

I am interested in the case of a house that was converted into flats in the 1980s. Is there any obligation to upgrade the common areas if they have not changed since Building regulation approval when originally converted. In the 1980s smoke alarms were not required, any solid door was deemed acceptable in lieu of a fire door and emergency lights were not required. It is the legal obligation ( or not) that I am interested in

[AnthonyB]

Yes if the fire risk assessment deems it necessary to meet the Fire Safety Order as amended by the Fire Safety Act. One big change with the FSO was it removed the 'statutory bar' of older legislation which allowed a building to retain outdated precautions as long as it was unchanged from when first approved (which could be decades ago).

As a pre-1991 house conversion, if two thirds of the flats are rented and it doesn't meet at least the 1991 Building Regulations it would be classed as a s257 HMO under the Housing Act and this usually results in a requirement for a mixed fire alarm system and in some council areas a license (but not lots as it would come under 'additional licensing' which is optional for Councils).

If it isn't a s257 HMO then requirements would be determined by the Fire Risk Assessment (a legal requirement for any building of 2 or more dwellings). The new draft Government Guidance for FRA in small blocks of flats is quite sympathetic to older blocks and doesn't automatically require alarm systems or even newer doors. It should be noted that the Fire Safety Act places a special status on the guidance for buildings containing dwellings that make it proof that an offence has been committed simply by showing the guidance wasn't followed rather than needing to show any resultant risk.

[Guest sarah JOhnson]

HI,

 

i have just converted a house into 2 flats. do i need a FRA and if so who can carry this out? can the agent can this out or does it have to be an approved body? thank you in advance 

[AnthonyB]

Yes - any building in England & Wales containing 2 or more dwellings comes under the Fire Safety Order 2005 as amended by the Fire Safety Act 2021 and requires a Fire Risk Assessment of all common parts, the exterior of the building (walls, windows, doors, balconies) and all flat front doors).

The legislation only requires that the person carrying it out is competent to provide a suitable & sufficient FRA, however in a lot of cases agents aren't competent and use an external specialist, preferably one with third party accreditation or on a fire risk assessors register.

Whilst there are some fire safety obligations under the Fire Safety Order that would come up in an FRA which you will have to implement that will not have been previously dealt with by Building Regulations, if your conversion has gone through the correct Building Control process there should be no major issues arising.

[Guest Ian W]

Hope it’s OK to add to this thread. 

I’m selling my flat which is part of a Victorian house. The conversion was done around 1980. 

The buyer is asking for a fire safety assessment, which my fellow freeholders tell me does not exist. I presume my solicitor didn’t ask for it when I bought the flat originally (in 2015). Another flat has also been sold successfully recently.

I’ve read a few things about the fact that we don’t have to record the assessment since we don’t employ people. If that’s the case, how can anyone ask to see it?

I’m happy to do one myself following the guidance, or even employ someone, but it seems unfair and very inconvenient that I’m just finding out about this in the final stages of a sale. 

The common area is a front door with one flight of stairs up to another flat. So absolutely tiny. 

[Tom Sutton]

Check previous submission below.

[Guest Sam]

Hello, I hope someone can help. 

 

We are in the process of buying a property converted in 2017. We have had a FRA as part of the final stages, which has flagged up some issues to check.

 

My question is, as the property was converted to 3 flats in 2017, and passed building regulations, would it have also complied with the regulations reform order 2005, at that time?

 

Thank you in advance!

[AnthonyB]

Passing Building Regulations does not mean a premises complies with the Fire Safety Order, principally because the system doesn't really work and many buildings with completion certificates fail to comply because the completion process doesn't thoroughly check for any defects, shortcuts, use of incorrect materials or poor workmanship affecting efficacy, as many premises have found out post Grenfell (which was also certified as having passed Building Regulations at the time despite defective design and works) when subject to enforcement action due to latent defects.

If the FRA highlights things that were a requirement of the Regs at the time of conversion but were overlooked there is a need to do something.

If the issues weren't a requirement at the time of conversion but are now, as the fire safety legislation (unlike Building Regulations) has no statutory bar and has to account for technical progress and current standards, the FRA has to determine if meeting older standards is still safe or whether modernisation is required - for some matters the old approach can remain valid, for others it has been proven to be too inadequate and some improvement is needed.

If it properly complied in 2017 there isn't a lot that should be wrong (however this relies on it being properly done which isn't a given these days) but note that many aspects of fire safety legislation (that have been around for a long time) aren't covered by Building Regulations, just the fire legislation so if compliant on the B.Regs front could still have been lacking since 2017 as they wouldn't have been checked by Building Control

[Guest Janet K]

I am the owner of an apartment in a converted Victorian villa (10 self contained apartments in total. Our last FRA was done in July 2021. Our management company said one needs to be done every 18 months, despite no changes to layout or works being done. They have installed a large green lit up fire escape sign above the main front door-there is only one front door and staircase in the property- from which each unit is accessed. They have also placed 10 fire escape signs along the staircase. This seems ridiculous as we all know how to enter and exit the property and all these signs cause confusion and look terrible. We are not a licensed HMO and share no facilities but the common stairwell area. Our ground rent is increasing again and it seems a case of ‘jobs for the boys’ as opposed to meeting uk legislation for our property type. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance 

[Mike North]

every 18 months for a new RA seems excessive, however for a review it should be 12 months (no changes, quick look, tick the box).

Without knowing the layout, there should be as a minimum a fire escape sign on every change of direction and level, don't forget it will be dark and smoke filled in a fire.  

However, what is confusing is why they are insisting on more signage when the property was  assessed by the same management company and signed off 18 months ago.  Are they admitting they got it wrong?

[AnthonyB]

Single stair single escape blocks of flats don't automatically require fire exit signage as it's obvious where you are going. The Government guidance cautions against institutionalising residential accommodation where of no benefit and specifically details exit signage as one example. The emergency lighting is fair enough.

There are lots of managing agents and their advisors that don't have a clue when it comes to resi fire safety. I was at a site for a residents right to manage companis' directors after their agent was trying to get them to fork out over £9k on a fire alarm and it was quite clear that whilst some minor works were required there was no need for an alarm system or a switch to full evacuation.(It was a small block of 3 storeys too)

18 months is odd - it's usually annual where the agent doesn't want the liability of doing the reviews themselves, otherwise 2 or 3 years isn't uncommon where the agent does interim reviews.

[Guest Dragon]

I have a flat in a victorian building which is four storeys.  My flat is the basement and I rent it out.  There are three flats in total.  Each flat is self-contained and has it's own front door.  There are no communal areas at all.  I have been informed that I need a fire door in the kitchen of this flat.  Is this correct?  There is an alternative route out of the flat via the bedroom windows if necessary.  

[AnthonyB]

Not for an existing legacy building - sound, well constructed and close-fitting conventional doors suffice under the current guidance (HOUSING – FIRE SAFETY Guidance on fire safety provisions for certain types of existing housing).

The Fire Safety Order would primarily apply to this block in respect to the external walls only and regardless of the layout doesn't apply to the interior of dwellings

[Guest James Renn]

Hope someone can assist.

I live in a converted Victorian property. There are 4 flats - ground floor, two on the first, one on the second. There is a basement with meters etc. There is an extension with a fifth flat, but separate access.

Two of the flats are rented out. 

I have been told, after living here a year, that we need new fire doors, frames, a basement ceiling...  We have a shared hallway that is the only entrance and exit, but they are suggesting we need signs on each floor.

I understand some improvements may need to be made but I am conscious of the huge cost. Everyone we have spoken to charges over £500 for the assessment and then recommends many thousands of pounds worth of work.

I just want to make sure we have the correct, fair assessment, that reflects the age and condition of the building. I don't want to be taken advantage of and any guidance would be great.

 

 

[AnthonyB]

If you only have a single common escape stair and route you don't need fire exit signage. There should be a fire procedure notice, but these don't have to everywhere.

You will need fire doors, but Government Guidance allows risk assessors leeway in the type of doors in smaller lower risk properties - it's not always a new door and frame.

A lot of FRAs will gold plate requirements as if it's a modern build, and don't use the guidance fully or correctly leading to unnecessary actions. Some sites will still need considerable expenditure but for others lesser actions are possible.

Costs are high for accredited risk assessors - we have more personal criminal liability than ever before and increased insurance costs - and a cheap FRA is often more costly in the long run.

A good risk assessor can save more than their fee - I've had blocks where residents were told they needed very expensive works, but after I did an FRA for them there was still expenditure but on a lesser scale (they had been quoted a 5 figure sum for a fire alarm system they didn't even need).

A Fire Risk Assessment is required by law, one way or another the block requires one.

[Guest Mark S]

Hi. I own a flat and share of freehold for a converted Victorian house (1970’s conversion) with two flats. The common area includes a small hallway with door to flat 1, and flight of stairs to landing and door to flat 2.

As co-freeholders (owners of the two flats) we have recently completed the fire risk assessment for the common area. The FRA recommends FD30S fire doors to each flat, complete with self-closers - consistent with guidance, and in line as far as I can see with the implied (or explicit?) requirement for closers in the recent 2022 fire regulations. 

However adding a closer to flat 2 will create a cumbersome entrance/exit as the door is on the original landing at the top of the first flight of stairs and immediately through the door is a second flight with corner stair where the door opens. The door opens barely to 90 degrees. Going though, for example with shopping bags or any item, will be probably be difficult and cumbersome against a self-closer.

From my perspective the risk of not having a self-closer is negligible, as 1) flat doors are normally closed and this is easily self-managed by two flat occupants using a single small entrance hall area and 2) doors are always closed when a flat is unoccupied and at night time i.e. when the risk from a fire is greatest.

Hence the ‘cost’ of adding the closure would appear to be disproportionate to any risk reduction gained. 

So my questions. Given the risk assessor has inevitably made a recommendation in line with guidance (that applies to a minimum of two flats, but is clearly designed for a larger number of dwellings) can we as co-freeholders make the case for not adding self-closers and record this appropriately- without being at risk of non compliance/conformance to relevant guidance or regulation? Does the relevant guidance (LACoRS?) allow for this assessment and decision making? From my reading it appears contradictory, saying it is only guidance in the intro sections but in section 21.5 says flat entrance doors will always require self-closers.

Many thanks for any assistance.

[AnthonyB]

No, it's been a key principle in guidance since 2011 that the self closers are fitted. Many deaths at Grenfell were attributed to missing or non working self closers allowing the internal escape stair (not directly affected by the cladding) to become impassable as it quickly filled with smoke from all the open doors.

The guidance  when it comes to residential is increasingly more than just a suggestion as it now has special legal status:
 

(1A) Where in any proceedings it is alleged that a person has contravened a provision of articles 8 to 22 or of regulations made under article 24 in relation to a relevant building (or part of the building)—

(a)proof of a failure to comply with any applicable risk based guidance may be relied on as tending to establish that there was such a contravention, and

(b)proof of compliance with any applicable risk based guidance may be relied on as tending to establish that there was no such contravention.

 

If you don't follow the guide you have proven your guilt!

 

The guidance is quite generous in smaller blocks allowing older fire doors to be retained but will not move on self closers - too many deaths associated with open doors (even before Grenfell)

There are lots of options to make a self closer less burdensome - delayed action closers, swing free closers, etc

[Guest Mark S]

Anthony, many thanks for your response and assistance.

It’s interesting to see the emphasis / legal status given to the guidance in the 2021 fire safety act. The guidance now seems essentially to be prescription where directly applicable (to premises types etc.). And with regard to door closers it looks to be just that, a must for flat doors off a shared entrance/ escape way. (I suspected was the case even for small conversion - but wanted to check!)

Thanks also for the suggestion to look at different closer types, hopefully there will be a good solution to retain ease of use. Kind regards.

[Guest Mark S]

Anthony, I have started enquiries with contractors. It is sounding like a full fire door set is required, to provide a certified FD30S door.

Whilst the current doors fit tightly in the frame and are very solid and I think likely to be fire resisting for at least 30 mins (and likely to be a fire door standard at the time - the conversion was by a housing authority), we do not have any information on the doors or mark on the doors which are fully painted.

Some photos attached.

So far, I've been told to expect a quote of around £2,800+VAT for each door. What's more, the ripping out the of the current door frames will lead to redecorating work (plastering and painting) and probably not insignificant cost.

It seems a tremendous shame to rip out two solid doors and frames at such expense and rework; versus an upgrade of the existing doors with the required seals, hinges, locks, closer.

Above you said that the guidance is quite generous in smaller blocks allowing older fire doors to be retained. Might this be applicable in our case - given the fitting date of the original doors, and no available door certificate - and if so, could you point me please to the guidance that could support?

(I think I know the answer already!). Kind regards.