Guest Rick Houghton Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Read through every possible article with no answer written in stone. What is the correct way to reduce the gaps on fire doors that already have smoke brush seals in the door? Can extra brush seals be added to door frame so you have brush seals touching? Building out the door or door frame with timber (4mm x 44mm) or similar is this allowed? If so can it be softwood or hardwood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 The correct perimeter gap between door edge and inside face of door frame is critical to fire separation performance. Consult the door manufacturers installation instructions for the gap size but if these are not available then make sure the gap at the top edge and two vertical edges is maximum 3mm plus/minus 1mm. If the fire door has a third party certification or manufacturers ID label then consult the manufacturer for details about what you can do to reduce an excessive gap. If there is no label and the fire door cannot be identified then you should remove any existing lippings and replace them with thicker ones in hardwood of 650kg/m3 density or greater. There is usually a limit to lipping thickness and I would never fit lippings of more than 18mm thickness unless permitted by the fire door manufacturer. If the door has intumescent seals and or smoke seals fitted to its edges then you will need to groove the newly fitted lippings and re-fit the seals if they are not damaged or worn. Even better fit new ones but don't mix types. All fire doors require intumescent seals these days. New lippings should not be added to existing lippings and they should be securely fixed to the door edges with pins and PVA wood glue and well clamped during the curing period. As an alternative to lipping the door edges you could close the gaps by re-positioning the door frame jamb, but thats probably more difficult a job than lipping the door edges. The threshold gap is also critical and should be no more than 8 to 10mm for a fire only door and 3mm for a fire door with smoke protection. Its sometimes difficult to achieve 3mm so I would recommend installing a hardwood (density as above) threshold strip to the floor and/or a smoke seal to the door bottom (can be face fixed) as necessary. Hope this helps and if you do this often obtain a copy of BS8214 and also check out the training available at www.fdis.co.uk . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sutton Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 You won't find them Rick, there is no standard fire door specification because they all vary from one to another. The submission above says it all, extra brush seals added to door frame, so you have brush seals touching and building out the door or door frame with timber or similar is a strict No, No. Also I like the above post, obviously an informed guy/gal, pity he/she is not a member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DK Shop Front Shutters Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 If the gap is not too big, just take the door off the frame (leave the hinges on the door), cut some thick cardboard shims (any thick cardboard stock will do - NOT corrugated though - sometimes you need two or three layers) to fit in the cutouts for the hinges on the door jamb, staple them in place, then reinstall the door, screwing through the cardboard into the existing holes. This will push the door towards the lockset side by a couple sixteenths, which may be enough to catch the lock and solve the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Safelincs Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Hi DK Does this not just move the problem from one side of the door to the other? Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sutton Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Also DK by adding cardboard you have destroyed the fire resistance how would you maintain the integrity of the FD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
green-foam Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 I am sorry, but I can't but think that Rick, has "sorted it" by now as he asked way back in February Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sutton Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 As the simpson's would say Doh ! :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alan Posted July 14, 2021 Report Share Posted July 14, 2021 hello I have a fire door with a 25mm gap at the bottom iv read on BM Trada we can only add 10mm lipping to a door, this includes cutting off the old lipping. can I also add a new drop seal to help close the gap. so that would be a new 10mm lipping and a drop seal that has a drop of 14mm. thanks Alan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil ashdown Posted July 30, 2021 Report Share Posted July 30, 2021 The maximum gap at the threshold for a timber-based fire door should be 10mm. Therefore you may need to fit a ramped threshold plate to the floor. Where restricted smoke spread is a requirement the maximum threshold gap is 3mm. Therefore, you may need to re-lip the bottom edge of the door, fit a ramped threshold plate and a threshold smoke seal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steve K Posted November 11, 2021 Report Share Posted November 11, 2021 Our school has Dorma double fire doors which now have a gap between the doors of 8mm. We cannot find a way to adjust them to reduce the gap. Does this mean we haev to replace totally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil ashdown Posted November 11, 2021 Report Share Posted November 11, 2021 No. If the doors are timber-based and in good condition, you may be able to adjust the door frame (re-position the jambs) to reduce the gap(s). This will involve pretty much removing the existing door frame and reinstalling to fit the door leaves as well as making sure the linear gap between frame and wall is compliant post-works. If in doubt, consult a competent person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Adding lip Posted December 7, 2021 Report Share Posted December 7, 2021 Ping to the top of a door or reducing frame height for a door with over a 15mm gap in the head. I think I'm having a stupid morning moment but unsure if lipping can be added all round on a remedial or if only bottom and sides? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil ashdown Posted December 9, 2021 Report Share Posted December 9, 2021 The thing with fire doors is that by making modifications you could cause the fire resistance performance certification to become void. This is because the scope of some types of certification are limited to this type of work being carried out by the original manufacturer or fabricator. If you add a lipping make sure its done by a competent person that has sufficient knowledge, or alternatively you could remove the complete fire door assembly so that the door frame head can be re-positioned to suit the door leaf / leaves. Refer to BS 8214: 2016 Timber-based fire door assemblies - Code of practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie197 Posted December 18, 2021 Report Share Posted December 18, 2021 Hi - I wonder if this topic is still active. The fire doors in our residential block have recently been inspected and all of the doors have failed. The building was completed 2007-8 and presumably the fire doors would have satisfied the regulations of 2005. The doors do not have any labels and according to the BWF web site would be regarded as nominal fire doors. The doors were supplied as door sets - door leaf and frame. The doors are 44mm thick and are of solid construction and would be classed as FD30. The frames have intumescent strips, draught seals and smoke seals on the frame jamb. The obvious fault with my own door is the gap between leaf and frame. It is about 2mm on the hinge side and 5-6mm on the latch side, and about 5mm at the door head. The threshold gap is about 10mm. Could this door be repaired and certified? I have attached two photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil ashdown Posted December 20, 2021 Report Share Posted December 20, 2021 Yes, it is possible to remediate excessive gaps. The most effective method would be to remove the door leaf and door frame and then reinstall to the correct tolerances. Refer to BS 8214: 2016 for guidance https://shop.bsigroup.com/products/timber-based-fire-door-assemblies-code-of-practice/standard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie197 Posted December 21, 2021 Report Share Posted December 21, 2021 Thanks Neil, but it costs GBP218 to read that standard. I will be contacting a local Fire Door installer and I am hoping he will be able to reposition the door leaf. The door is 838mm wide and the frame spacing is 846mm so I am hoping that by packing the hinges the gap will be 4mm on each side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil ashdown Posted December 28, 2021 Report Share Posted December 28, 2021 ? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Firerequest 1 Posted August 30, 2022 Report Share Posted August 30, 2022 As a further question. If the gap between a FD30 firedoor and hardwood door frame was for example 6mm,Is it acceptable to build out the door frame to close the gap using hardwood greater than 650kg m3? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil ashdown Posted September 7, 2022 Report Share Posted September 7, 2022 Advice given earlier is based on relevant guidance. I am not aware of any guidance to support adding thin strips of timber to the inside face of the door frame for reducing the gap, as an alternative to reinstalling the door frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Theatre John Posted March 17, 2023 Report Share Posted March 17, 2023 Hi Neil, I have just had a full report done on all the fire doors in our small local theatre and many have failed on gaps and intumescent seals etc. We were quoted over 40K to bring it all up to spec which we simply cant afford, so I have done the fire door maintenance course but it was not very detailed on repair techniques. The doors are mostly FD30 made by Shapland, I am struggling to find and data sheets or third party certification, can you suggest anything? Also what would be a suitable material to use to pack the hinges where the gap is less than 3mm. Thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Ashdown MAFDI Posted March 20, 2023 Report Share Posted March 20, 2023 Its my belief that although 'Shapland' are no longer in business, IDSL possess much of the product data and evidence of fire resistance performance. So you could contact them at http://www.leaderflushshapland.co.uk/Integrated-doorsets/Technical-Resources possibly for archived data/information and guidance about the doors. If you wish to use packing material behind hinges this may be done, within reason, using Interdens intumescent sheet material and this is available 1mm and 2mm thick. This sort of information and examples of suitable repairs should be included in the training materials provided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Bissett Posted September 21, 2023 Report Share Posted September 21, 2023 Hi John, This is directed towards yourself however open for anybody. As of a recent discovery we have discovered that ANY and ALL Leaderflush Shapland doors in a court of law is a FAIL. This is because when the company went bust nobody bought or made an effort to retrive the test evidence for their doors. As an inspector myself if i were to pass a Leaderflush and Shapland door and then a fire was to break out in court when I would be questioned on why I passed the door I would have no test evidence to support myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Ashdown MAFDI Posted September 23, 2023 Report Share Posted September 23, 2023 Hi Sean, At face value your statement appears to be misleading and, in view of the possibly thousands of buildings containing Leaderflush Fire Doors, needs clarification about the circumstances in which the doors would be a "fail in a court of law"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Bissett Posted September 25, 2023 Report Share Posted September 25, 2023 Hi Neil, I believe my statements stands in a clear way. Any Leaderflush door is a Fail as you cannot provide any test evidence. For example, In court if you were to say " This Leaderflush door needed to have a dropseal as the gap was bigger than 10mm" and someone was to say "where`s your proof?", you can`t as there is no evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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