Satisfactory certificate with PVC zones?

[wes]

Hi, I'm 16 years time served and highly qualified in the electrical industry, plenty of fire alarm experience and the Eal Regs Level 3 for the requirements and beginning  a Zues course soon to further my knowledge.

I'm getting more commissioning work , I use solo equipment. I'm doing HMOS and I've found two recently that have red PVC for the zones which unfortunately does not have any FR.

These buildings are big and rewiring would be very hard and impractical with students living there. My question is if all other things are satisfactory- can it be passed as satisfactory with a cavet of non compliance? Obviously legally I want to be covered and would prefer to upgrade systems but it would be a challenge to say the least. 

 

[green-foam]

This red PVC cable, is it 3 core and earth that is used to power and interconnect the smoke alarms? If so, the question should be, are the smoke alarms suitable for the property. Red 3 core and earth is made by Doncaster cables to identify that the cable is not a 2 way switching cable (That is what grey 3 core and earth is used for) but it should only be used for interlinking smoke alarms.

 

[wes]

Hi, this is a Grade A system not mains interlink.

If it was pre-installed before 2008 can this be noted and labelled Satisfactory with a non-compliance? Thanks

[AnthonyB]

On 05/10/2024 at 13:18, wes said:

Hi, I'm 16 years time served and highly qualified in the electrical industry, plenty of fire alarm experience and the Eal Regs Level 3 for the requirements and beginning  a Zues course soon to further my knowledge.

I'm getting more commissioning work , I use solo equipment. I'm doing HMOS and I've found two recently that have red PVC for the zones which unfortunately does not have any FR.

These buildings are big and rewiring would be very hard and impractical with students living there. My question is if all other things are satisfactory- can it be passed as satisfactory with a cavet of non compliance? Obviously legally I want to be covered and would prefer to upgrade systems but it would be a challenge to say the least. 

 

What Grade of system? If Grade A then they should have been fire cables since 2002 and sounder cables should since...for ever! 
Red PVC is often used to hide the fact to a casual observer that they have used non FR cable in order to reduce costs.

If the sounder circuits are PVC this is a critical non compliance and has to be rectified. You can't certify a post 2002 system as compliant with the standard either where the detection zones are non FR even if the sounders are FP.

If it is only the detection zones an agreed variation may be possible but the fire alarm designer, client, fire risk assessor & enforcement authority would need to agree it and the control panel would need to be set up to operate as 'Short Circuit = Fire' rather than the modern default of 'Short Circuit = Fault' to compensate for the non FR detection cabling so it's destruction by fire would result in an alarm rather than a fault.

[wes]

Hi,

Thanks for your help, Im currently absorbing all the information I can before doing a further course.

Yes its Grade A, Sounder circuits are FP - My quote was rejected by landlord to use these circuits to convert to an Alarmsense system utilising the cable runs as its a big HMO and making it sounder base/smokes etc throughout. Another company came along and told me I was wrong and it complied before "2008" I beleive they said so it has to still comply.

I can't now remember the make of the panel but i found another one with a new Ctec panel recently, conventional system - I Presume i can set this panel to Short Circuit?

The Designer - How would you locate this from so many years ago? Client, Risk Assessor and authority should't be an issue. In terms of my certificate i would state it as non-compliance and ensure all of the above criteria is met and state it on the certificate or some kind of official papertrail? Thanks

[wes]

Further to add, 99/100 panels, especially HMOS never have zonal diagrams - Is it unrealistic for a house/HMO to have one or a non-compliance again i presume? It seems a little bizzare that some decent labelling wouldn't suffice i.e Zone 3 - Top floor bedrooms

[AnthonyB]

If installing to BS5839 they should as for Grade A systems BS5839-6 requires them to meet Clause 23 of BS5839-1 for CIE which, amongst other things, requires a one plan.

If the system is existing and has sounders in FR it's tolerable if the FRA accepts it and it's a SC=F panel it is tolerable, but any additions should be current.

From memory C-tec panels can be set up to operate SC=F