has this conventional panel with sav-wire reached end of life?

[Ash]

Hi for a residential house converted 30+ years ago to 8 self-contained flats (7 studios, one 1-bedroom).

It has a 14 year old system with Haes Envoy panel programmed to a twin-wire/ sav-wire apollo-65 series bases/detectors/sounders. There's 4 zones, heat detectors in each flat, and smokes in the hallways all connected to the panel. Each flat has a stand-alone mains-powered smoke alarm.

In the past year or two, 2 zones have developed a fault and diagnosing was tricky as it's trial an error checking each device on the zone.

Ideally I'd like a system where it's possible to see on each device if it's faulty. My fire engineer quoted £2500 to replace the panel, all detectors/sounders and call points to TwinFlex (presumably Fike) as that would show via blinking-LEDs which device is playing up, but that's above my current budget.

Is there a simpler and cheaper route that would keep most of the existing detectors e.g. just replacing the panel with a Kentec Sigma?

Or for that matter does an Apollo AlarmSense system allow individual devices to indicate which is faulty?

thanks,

Ash

 

 

[green-foam]

The type of fire alarm that indicates the status of a specific device (Fire, missing, fault, contamination) is known as analogue addressable. It is the panel that "interrogates" all devices, (Call points, sounders, detectors etc) so no matter what you opt for, unless it is addressable, any panel will only indicate the zone or type of device operated, which is not what you are looking for.

There are a variety of "2 wire panels"  Kentec do make a panel which is compatible with what you currently have the "Kentec Sigma CP Sav-Wire" Part code T11040M2 

Apollo AlarmSense detectors are designed for two wire systems, such as you have now.

Apollo recommend that their detectors be changed every 10 years of working life.

 

[AnthonyB]

Be careful - whilst Sav Wire, Bi-Wire and Alarmsense are all conventional systems using just 2 wires for detection, call points & sounders they are NOT compatible, using different methods of operation: Some use differing voltage drops, others use reversing of polarity.

If your existing system is Sav-wire then neither a Fike Bi-wire or an Apollo Alarmsense compatible panel will work unless you changed every field device as well.

If you want to know the exact device in fault you need to move to an addressable system, requiring a new panel and field devices, but possibly able to use the cabling if looped out (or spurred off a loop with suitable isolators)

Also the panel may well not even been the cause of the fault, it may be a wiring or device issue - your alarm engineer, if any good, would be able to find the fault which might be something cheap & simple.

[Ash]

Engineer says Fike TwinFlex Pro devices do indicate faults on each device via flashing LED, which means when they panel says something is wrong, then it's simpler to work out which exact device is the correct one.

Basically, it's the best way to get simpler diagnostics of future faults without rewiring when compared the the current sav-wire system.

Is that not so?

[AnthonyB]

It's not part of the user fault finding process.
(https://fireandelectrical.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Twinflex-Pro-User-Manual.pdf)

It can be traced on devices by engineers
(https://fireandelectrical.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Twinflex-Pro-Installation-Manual.pdf)

Twinflex is a bit off - it's an analogue conventional and does have some features beyond a standard one (the original twinflex panels showed not only the zone of fire, but whether it was a call point or detector)

You could keep the cable but would have to replace every single device as well as the panel if you want to swap to Twinflex - however you just need a decent engineer to find the faults, you shouldn't need to bin the whole thing - plus if the faults are on the zone cabling you will still have all the same issues, so if biting the bullet and replacing everything you might as well go the whole hog and re cable so it's all correct.

[Ash]

On 07/02/2024 at 20:25, AnthonyB said:

however you just need a decent engineer to find the faults, you shouldn't need to bin the whole thing - plus if the faults are on the zone cabling you will still have all the same issues, so if biting the bullet and replacing everything you might as well go the whole hog and re cable so it's all correct.

Hi thanks a lot! It should indeed be possible to for them to find the fault, but as it's a 14+ year SAV-wire system with a panel model that was around in 2008, so my fire engineer company says "all the devices have surpassed their recommended replacement dates and so need to be replaced anyway".

And they says if I "upgrade" to TwinFlex then future fault diagnoses/repair should be quicker and thereore cheaper than my current (Haes envoy panel with Apollo s65 detectors) system. I do wonder if they'll say the same thing in 10 years time about the TwinFlex though ...!

Thought?

Btw, I wouldn't want to recable because the wiring is neatly embedded and rewiring completely no doubt involves a lot of ugly trunking inside the flats and massive increase in work/cost. (This is assuming there's no cable fault at present, but even if there is it's only 1 zone.)

[AnthonyB]

There is no set lifespan for devices and independent testing has shown up 25 years of reliable function - but of course devices will eventually fail, either by false alarming or not working whilst tested, so at some point things will get replaced.

Haes Sav Wire panels and Apollo Sav wire bases and s65 conventional detectors are all current manufactured kit so there is no reason not to just replace individual components as and when they fail  - it's your choice if you wish to start over in one go for the fault finding extras a Fike system provides.

[Ash]

OK thanks so much