Nightlatch on door

[Guest Mike]

Are night latches allowed on flat entrance doors?. The door  has no information on it & was installed in late 70’s early 80’s. I thought drilling through doors was not allowed.

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

These days cylinder rim night latches are not fitted to fire doors.  There are three main reasons: 1) Lack of availability of fire rated cylinder rim night latches.  2) The installation height for a night latch is usually higher on the door than permitted by the fire test evidence for the fire door leaf.  3) The lock cylinder requires a large diameter hole through the door and this may adversely affect the fire resistance performance of the door. 

However, its possible that the existing door and lock combination was accepted by Building Control at the time of installation. 

[Mike North]

Depends on the door but they are allowed

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

Hi Mike, Strebord doors with Euro and oval cylinders up to 1400mm up which is good, but as you say it depends on the evidence for the door.  But not for cylinder rim night latches, nada.  Unfortunately.

If you find one please let me know, that would be really useful. Thanks  🙂

[Mike North]

 

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

Thanks Mike, 

Excellent, we will buy one and let you know how we get on.

[Mike North]

Neil

If they become unavailable, I have a major problem since I have approximately 10,000 of them

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

To be suitable for a timber-based fire door the night latch needs to be Fire Rated CE / UKCA marked to BSEN12209 and of course compatible with the door leaf in question.  Once the one ordered arrives we may be able to check. Good luck.

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

No CE / UKCA marks on the product or in the packaging and no specific installation instructions pertaining to fire doors.  However, the supplier has provided a Declaration of Performance which references fire resistance testing and use of intumescent material.

[Mike North]

So yes they can be used

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

As I said no installation instructions provided specific to a fire door and no BS or EN Construction Products Regulations markings on the product or its packaging.  So nothing apparent to be able to link the Declaration of Performance, they provided, to the product.

It would, as a minimum, be necessary to obtain and carefully study the 'relevant' fire resistance test report before considering whether (and how) to install.

[Musomum]

On 18/07/2023 at 08:11, Neil Ashdown MAFDI said:

These days cylinder rim night latches are not fitted to fire doors.

Hi, I've posted a question re flat front doors but now this thread is confusing me with regard to what I refer to as a 'yale' lock on a door which I strongly believe isn't fire rated at all - although I note it does have a chain. Are you saying that typical locks are not fitted to flat front doors (as in Yale or similar)? My door has only a mortice lock, with no latch and the door doesn't close because there isn't a means for it to shut itself without actually locking yourself in the flat or locking the flat door from communal side. If a yale isn't suitable or fire rated, what should be there instead? How does the door close and get opened from the inside? Sorry if I'm being dense, but I've never come across a flat door like this one. The other flat doors have two locks - one yale, one mortice.

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

These days most flat entrance doors have a three point locking system for enhanced security but in years past its quite normal to find a mortice sash-lock or a cylinder rim night latch  - and sometimes both.  There are issues with the use of cylinder rim night latches due to the positioning of the lock so far up the height of the door and because of the large hole required for the cylinder.

All flat entrance doors that are fire doors must have an effective self-closing device.

[Musomum]

Thank you Neil

[Guest Tony]

Hi, I’ve just been reading these last posts and just wanted to know if the Yale lock/ nightlatch would have been okay on a blank door installed in 2003? The door has a plug in it with a circle to prove it’s a fire door but will these locks void the certification?

thanks in advance 

[Guest Tony]

Hi,

I have just found out that Arrone do a night latch but the lock is not CE /UKCA marked. Arrone have said there is no current requirement for certifire & CE certification. Would it be okay to install this lock on a front door?

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

The questions are:

1) Will the door self-close effectively with this type of lock fitted?

2) Will the lock have an adverse effect on the fire resistance performance of the door?

Consult the manufacturer of the specific door leaf, where possible, for advice. 

[Patch]

On 05/09/2023 at 08:52, Neil Ashdown MAFDI said:

As I said no installation instructions provided specific to a fire door and no BS or EN Construction Products Regulations markings on the product or its packaging.  So nothing apparent to be able to link the Declaration of Performance, they provided, to the product.

It would, as a minimum, be necessary to obtain and carefully study the 'relevant' fire resistance test report before considering whether (and how) to install.

I found this thread looking for information about exactly this lock. Having bought it from Screwfix specifically because it was listed as 'fire rated', I was surprised to find no standard markings on the product or information in the box. I've gone back to Screwfix and asked them to provide more information about the product and will see if they come up with anything, but I think it'll have to go back as anyone who inspects it will probably find it lacking. 

I'm aiming to replace another marking-less, non-compliant lock of the same style that was flagged during a recent fire door survey (and which was non-compliant when installed in 2008, frustratingly) but the only other similar lock I can find which looks like it will genuinely be certified is the Banham FD5000 roller bolt night latch, which is over £300 and seems like overkill, but I suppose that'd still be cheaper than totally replacing the door. I think I'll have to do more research on whether the leaf has already been wrecked by the hole for the original lock though. Wildly frustrating that it wasn't done right when it was built and was signed off anyway. 

[Neil Ashdown MAFDI]

I am informed that there is no relevant Standard for this type of lock and that therefore CE or UKCA marking is not possible.  If you can trace the fire door to its certification or its manufacturer you should be able to check what type of locks are permitted.

[Eric90]

Independent living accommodation , residents bedroom doors have yale locks fitted so therefore can be locked from the inside, when queried the care provider their response was "well they haven't locked themselves in yet" (the client group are physically/mentally impaired) surely if they are required to be locked when the resident is out or on holiday then that's fine but they should be able to be opened in the event of an emergency without the fear of it being locked by a confused resident?

 

Thanks

[AnthonyB]

They have a right to security & are not obliged to have unlocked doors. Prior to wider use of deadlocks with thumb turns on the inside the 'Yale' type night rim latch was the usual 'simple fastening' to allow ease of escape whilst locked (they had to be the type without a snib that locks out the turn knob).

Independent living or sheltered housing as it is termed in official guidance is as the name suggests for people still capable of living independently with only limited intervention & supervision and if they don't have the capability to use their front door ironmongery then there are far more safety issues around their house and they should have a care assessment to see if they are still capable of independent living, not leave their front door unlocked.

[Mike North]

wouldn't the spare key unlock the door?