Do flat owners under their own management need fire risk assessment?

[Guest Gary]

hello,

we rent a shop and the flat above. the flat is then sublet to a tenant, the flat has it's own front door and no shared communal areas. a FRA is in place for the shop but would we require one for the flat above?

 

Thanks

[AnthonyB]

No, but you would have responsibilities for the flat under the Housing Act and if in England The Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Alarm (England) Regulations 2015 meaning that there should be working smoke alarms in the landing/lobby of the flat.

Whilst the flat is not covered the occupiers are still Relevant Persons and the shop FRA should consider the risk to those above it from fire in the shop

[Guest Collison]

How often should the communal fire alarm system within a  set of 6 number apartments over three floors be tested ?

[AnthonyB]

Usually weekly test and six monthly service, assuming the system is required in the first place

[Guest Vin]

Hi Tom

on a similar theme of communal areas as above, which is always a confusing subject; I have carried out a number of fire risk assessments for a managing agents in the last two weeks for communal areas of converted flats.I have read LACORS etc. In my report I stated that the electric fuse boards should be part of a 5 year electrical installation report by competent person. The managing agents have countered this by saying the boards serve the flats only(no electrics in common parts) and they are not allowed to test them as they are not theirs, it is down to the flat owners(10 year domestic test unless rented out). 

Could you please clarify the position on electrical installations within the common parts,Does it matter whose property they supply if they are within the common parts, Should the landlord test and then apportion cost,etc The landlord is saying that all previous FRA's over many years by various companies have not even mention this.

It is a stay put evacuation policy with fire doors on all front doors. I am an experienced firefighter and risk assessor but have not done much work on residential properties. Your help would be greatly appreciated as I am starting to doubt myself.

Regards  

   

[AnthonyB]

If the flats are privately owned it's the householder's responsibility with a 10 year recommended test interval, if rented it's 5 years with the landlord being responsible.

The Agent for the common areas may indeed have no control over the domestic boards as they state so cannot test them - the issues arising from a fire here should be considered - do they need enclosure? The Agent would need to inform the householders/landlords whose boards they are of the findings of the FRA regarding testing - for a rented flat the landlord could be found in breach of the Housing Act if they don't maintain the installation and the local council can serve them an enforcement notice.

[Guest GUEST Alex]

Hi, 

I live in a purpose built victorian mansion block of three flats (built around 1890). Each flat is owned share of freehold with an accompanying leasehold between the share of freeholders. The ground floor flat and first floor flat (my own) are owner occupiers and the 2nd floor flat is let by the share of freeholder. They are asking for us to contribute to the cost of a third party fire risk assessment (to include landlord requirements) of the communal area which includes a ground floor hallway and turn staircase with landings on each subsequent floor. Is this something we need to share the cost of? Or as owner occupiers is it just the letting share of freeholder who requires this? Both owner occupiers have fitted smoke and carbon monoxide alarms, fire blankets in the kitchen and fire extinguishers by there front doors. The communal areas are lit in accordance to fire safety regulations. 

I would really appreciate any help given. 

Thanks 

Alex 

[Tom Sutton]

The owners/landlords should jointly maintain the common areas of flats or employ a management company to do it for them, usually paying an annual service fee. To add to this the common areas are subject to The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 and are required to implement articles 8 to 22 which includes conducting a fire risk assessment. This can be done by the owners/landlords or a management company but will means an extra cost in your case it looks like the owner/landlord of the rented flat has employed a management company who has to carry out their duties under the RR(FS)O. All of you need to get together and discuss the situation and resolve any disagreements.

[Guest Robert Hood]

Hi, 

I recently purchased a flat, to which I own a share of freehold. The freehold is held by a management company. Prior to me owning the flat, a fire safety report was undertaken which raised a number of points (i.e. installing fire doors, a central fire alarm system and removing chipboard wall-paper). 

Are we obliged to act on the issues identified (some of which will be costly to implement)? How does not acting on this impact our ability to claim on insurance in the event of a fire? 

Thanks

[Tom Sutton]

At some stage all the Owners/Freeholders decided to allow a management company to take control of the common areas usually with a service cost involved. If they do not carry out the work identified by the Fire Risk Assessment then they will be in breach of The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 and could be prosecuted.

How this work will be paid for will depend on the contract agreed between the Owners/Freeholders and the management company as they are working for you.

As for you fire insurance you need to speak to your insurance company but if the premises is breaking the law it would be a good excuse not to pay out, god forbid any insurance company would do this.

[Guest Jason]

Hello,

I am the landlord of a 1 bedroom flat occupied by tenants (a couple). I am not the freeholder. Am I required to do a fire evaluation assessment? There are common parts as the flat is in a small block of some 9 or 10 other flats. There is a management company. Are they responsible for doing a fire evaluation assessment? Should I contact them to enquire if they have done this? Am I required to have a copy of the fire evaluation assessment? Am I required to do anything for the fire evaluation assessment even though I am only a leaseholder?

Thank you in advance for your help.

[Tom Sutton]

The management company will be designated the Responsible Person (article 3) and have a duty to implement article 8 to 22 which includes a fire risk assessment also any work required to conform to The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 you may be charged for though your service charge. You can talk to the management company and I am sure they will confirm they are meeting the duties of the RR(FS)O but they are not legally required to provide a copy of the FRA.

You are required to provide a smoke and a CO detector for the flat but the common area is the responsibility of the management company.

[Guest David]

I own one of five flats in a large converted Victorian house.   We are self-managed by a company that owns the freehold, and is itself owned by the flat-owners.  The two ground floor flats have their own entrances, the three upstairs are served by a single flight of stairs.  The front door opens directly on to the stairs.  At the top are three doors.  That's it.  So we do have communal space, and we have never had a fire risk assessment.  I've no doubt we would want to conduct one ourselves if we could.  My question here is really what we would have to do.  Instal a simple domestic fire alarm?  Signage would be pretty pointless - going downstairs is the only thing you can do.  A second exit is completely impracticable.  What else?

The building also has a large cellar.  Some of the flats have their own lockable rooms in it, the others have their own allocated bays, specified on the deeds but not walled off.  Every square inch of the cellar is owned by one flat or other.  Obviously we all have to walk through the section that is by the door, even though it is actually owned by a specific flat.  So do we have any communal space?  And if so, what should we actually do?  The nearest thing to a hazard would be that there is a power supply, gas supply pipes for the flats are routed through the cellar, and there is some timber and other wooden items there.  A possible hazard, but a lot less than in any of the flats, which would have all of these things, plus fires and cookers etc.

I suppose I'm sort of hoping that a fire risk assessment amounts to not much more than documenting what I've written above, and leaving it at that.  But I'd be very grateful for any guidance.  We are obviously in the wrong as things stand.

[Tom Sutton]

Fire risk assessment does not amount to simple documenting some salient facts it is trying to prevent a fire in the first place then ensuring the tenants of your building can safely evacuate the building if there is a fire.

The management company you have created will be the Responsible Person (RP) as designated by the The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 and has a duty to implement article 8 to 22 of the order which includes conducting a fire risk assessment. (FRA) 

The common areas are any area that more than one household has legal access and it appears the stairs, landings and cellar, which include the front door of any flat that opens onto the common area, will be classed as a common area.

Any person can conduct a FRA providing they considered themselves competent to apply the appropriate guides and standards to the premises. The following is a list of links you may find useful, the appropriate guide would be HOUSING – FIRE SAFETY Guidance on fire safety provisions for certain types of existing housing, guidance on conducting a FRA http://www.firesafe.org.uk/fire-risk-assessment/  and http://www.firesafe.org.uk may help with necessary information.

[Guest Alan D]

I own one of four flats in a large converted Victorian house.   All flats have there own entrance from the outside.

The building does have a small cellar area.  Three of the flats have their own lockable rooms in it. There is a small entrance way in the cellar that we all have to walk through this section to get to the lockable rooms in the cellar.  is this classed as a common area? and therefore do we need a fire risk assessment? 

[Tom Sutton]

I could be argued that it is a common area and a FRA is required, but you would not require a written FRA. I would inspect it to if there are any fire risk that could affect the residents above and take the appropriate steps.

[Guest BrightonM]

Hi,

i live in a block of 12 flats, 4 floors. I'm a leaseholder and not part of the freehold. We have a management company that the freeholders work with.

We currently don't have any fire Safety things such as fire safe doors, etc and the fire escape is currently 'deemed unfit for purpose' and we're not allowed to use it.

the management company are looking into it but I want to know if ta a legal requirement of theirs to sort or if they can charge us for it?

[AnthonyB]

It's a legal requirement for them to resolve this, however depending on how the leases, etc are worded if the cost exceeds the service charge budget they may be entitled to ask for a contribution.

[Guest Gary]

Hello.

I am the owner of an apartment in a small complex of 20 apartments spread over three small blocks. I look after the shared/common parts on behalf of the apartment owners. I arrange the cleaners, gardeners, lift and electric gate maintenance, amongst other things, plus all of the administration - annual accounts, legal requirements relating to property sales, remortgaged, etc..

Our freehold has asked for a Health & Safety Report; a Fire Risk Assessment; and an Asbestos Survey to be sent to them in relation to 'current legislation'. Being only twelve years old, there is no asbestos on site. So, I guess need to pull together a formal Fire Risk Assessment 'for their records', as per their request. Up until a few years ago we had a fireman living down the road who used to walk around the development with me and help check for fire risks. He said that we didn't need to write anything down, but just record that it's been done. Reading through this interesting thread, it appears that his advice is correct - we don't need to record our inspection as we don't employ anyone - all contractors are self employed or work for other companies who we contract. Has this changed recently?

Also, is there as shortened version of the Fire Risk Assessment form for residential common areas?

...and, finally, we keep tins of touch-up paint in a communal cupboard in one of the hallways. Can we continue to do this? Further, there are lots of other communal cupboards and residents use them to store their personal affects; normally things for the garden. Is this okay, or should all cupboards be kept empty?

Thanks in advance for your help,

Gary

[AnthonyB]

Not much point to cupboards if you keep them empty....If they are fitted with fire doors that are marked and kept locked shut and the cupboards are of fire resisting construction then you can store in them - if you had carried out a suitable and sufficient risk assessment you would have been advised on this.

As you don't employ 5 or more persons, aren't licensed and aren't subject to an Alterations Notice you don't have to record your significant findings, however it's recommended and can cause difficulties in situations like yours where other parties need to see it. 

Some sites have pro formas for residential fire risk assessments, but they are not necessarily shorter as residential fire safety can be more complex than it seems despite the limited common space.

I'd use the current Government Guidance to do your own FRA - you may find your quick walk around with a fireman may have missed some pertinent points (they aren't all trained in technical fire safety to any depth - this is a separate department of a Brigade increasingly staffed by specialist civilians with fire service managers)

https://www.local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/fire-safety-purpose-built-04b.pdf

[Guest R Grin]

I am in the final process of purchasing a flat above shop freehold. the lender's solicitor asks for asbestos, fire risk assessment and access. There is no shared communal area between the shop tenant and the flat tenant on the 1st and 2nd floor(one flat only occupying 1st and 2nd floor). Do I still need this assessment?

[AnthonyB]

No, the Fire Safety Order would only apply to the retail unit

[MATTRESS75]

Hi Tom,

Hope you can advise...

Do front doors to individual flats (within a block of flats) have to be FD30 standard, even if the building in question was converted in 2001 and the conversion was certified as meeting buildings regulations at the time?

 If they do indeed need to meet the FD30 standard, when should those doors have been replaced? Should they have been replaced the moment the 2005 Act came into law or would there have been a period of grace to give people time to comply?

 FYI I’m the secretary of a residents management company who own the freehold of a building with five flats.

 Many thanks,

 Matt

[Tom Sutton]

The 1992 approved document B (fire safety) was clear and front doors should be FD30_S  providing it did not exceed 7.5 m to the staircase, in this case the front door will open into the staircase, so the conversion should have met those conditions in 2001. It would have come to light when the premises where audited after 2006, however there were limited audits and high risk premises was audited first, unless it came to the attention of the fire service as the result of a fire. If the fire service found serious problems then prosecutions were initiated but in most situations the responsible person was given sufficient time to put things right.

Now the guide used for this type of premises is FIRE SAFETY Guidance on fire safety provisions for certain types of existing housing and require fire resisting front doors.

[MATTRESS75]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your response. 

We recently had a professional FRA done at our building which was converted in 2001 to Buildings Control standards at that time; the assessor measured the entrance doors to each flat and found they were about 2mm too thin to qualify as FD30 fire doors (they measured 44mm deep and also had four thinner panels). 

 

Is our only option to completely replace the doors and frames? Or is there a way we could add some approved paneling to the back of the door to achieve the required 44mm depth that way? I'm aware there's even fire-retardant paint whose manufacturers claim can effectively 'upgrade' some doors to FD30 standard.

 

Here are a couple of links to manufacturers selling intumescent panelling which they claim can 'upgrade' a door to FD30 status:

Intumescent material and panelled door upgrade kits - Envirograf

Intumescent Panelled Door Upgrade Kit

And here's a link to an intumescent paint designed to 'upgrade' doors to fire door status; the manufacturers state there's a certificate of supply that can be signed by the applicator to show the door's been painted to safety standards:

https://www.rawlinspaints.com/door-upgrade-kits?gclid=CNmPpszm0dYCFQqT7Qodv94HrQ

 

If our only option is to purchase new doors and frames we'll obviously do that but we're keen to know if there are any other options open to us.

 

Cheers,

 

Matt