Do 2kg powder car fire extinguishers have to be serviced?

[Guest GarryBlake]

Hi

We use 2kg powder extinguishers on our farm vehicles (sit on lawn mawers, tractors, delivery vans).

Do these have to be serviced by engineers or could we do this ourselves and throw away after five years?

Garry

[Safelincs]

The RRO defines that “premises” include any workplace including vehicles. So all your cars and mobile farm machinery would require extinguishers. The HSE website also states that even if a vehicle is NOT carrying dangerous goods it must still have a minimum 2kg ABC extinguisher which should be “periodically inspected in accordance with the authorized national standard”.

Cheers

Harry

[Tom Sutton]

Are they sealed type extinguishers?

[Tom Sutton]

I would suggest, although vehicles are considered to be premises under the RR(FS)O, art 6(e) exempts them if they are used as transport or carry a vehicle exercise licence. HSE guidance still applies if they are working vehicles but fire extinguishers are not required unless a risk assessment requires them or if the vehcle is subject to ADR.

The other problem is you can get 2Kg ABC dry powder extinguishers factory sealed and the only meaningful test you can do is part of commissioning and the visual inspection under BS 5306-3:2009 Commissioning and maintenance of portable fire extinguishers. There are five tests, commissioning, visual inspection, basic service, extended service, overhaul and because they are sealed then there is not a great deal can be done other than return or replace.

[Tom Sutton]

Further results of my research on dry powder extinguishers for vehicles.

If a company has ABC dry powder extinguishers, for use in company vehicles, it appears there are three variations available, factory sealed aerosol types, and factory sealed disposable types and traditional types.

1. Aerosol types such as Firemaster, First Alert, some Kidde models, Fireblitz and Jactone there are no servicing actions beyond user visual and user check weigh, with replacement at the end of the 5 year warranty.

2. Some of the other disposable/factory sealed types which in effect were non rechargeable versions of 'traditional' extinguishers such as those used in the past by Kidde & Guardian and gauged aerosols as used by Firemaster in the 80's/90's in theory can be subjected to the full Basic Service as you can remove pins and re-tag, gauge verify with a tool etc., The only difference being, should recharge be needed on the extended service is has to be replaced.

3. The tradition types need to be serviced fully in accordance with BS 5306 Pt 3 2008.

Therefore I would suggest for the protection of a motor vehicle you would require a minimum 2Kg ABC class dry powder extinguisher. The advice on carrying fire extinguishers in motor vehicles is very sparse unless you are subject to the ADR, CDG Regulations and they require a minimum of one 2Kg ABC Dry powder and I cannot see any reasons to disagree with that.

None of the aerosols types are suitable because they only cover class BC but the ABC disposable/factory sealed types are suitable. They would need commissioning test on installation, visual every month and a basic service every 12months and to be replaced at the extended service/overhaul.

The traditional type should be serviced as indicated above.

[Guest Steve j]

HI, we run transit type vehicles used for maintanance work on social housing.Plumbing,painting,carpentry,plastering and handy man type work.Our vehicles have since the start of time and beyond carried 1KG powder,but no one knows why and for what reason.I have read every piece of information but can not get a straight answer or get a difinative writen rule that says we have to carry fire extinguishers.We dont carry DG and have never had a vehicle fire at all.It is not even a vehicle insurance request.If the engine bay went up in flames I would not excpect any person to open the bonnet (allowing more oxygen to fule the fire) .And if the cab went up in flames and the extinguisher needs to be placed in the cab as per advice on HSE web site who in their right mind would stay in the cab area.Any one able to give clear and concise information before I go mad.............

[green-foam]

I will leave the rules / regulations to Harry / Tom, but I think you are missing the point / misunderstanding.

An extinguisher should be in the cab as opposed to being in the back for several reasons.

If the vehicle is in a rear end collision and the extinguisher is required and it is "in the back" how will you open the door/s to get at the extinguisher?

If the cab "goes up" (as you put it) I would have to ask you "who is asking anyone to stay in the cab?"

who in their right mind would stay in the cab area

The idea is the driver / passenger vacate the vehicle taking the extinguisher with them to extinguisher the fire from outside.

In general you carry a suitable fire extinguisher as "first aid" against fire. You can either extinguish a small fire and save the vehicle and its contents or watch it all go up in flames. I know which I prefer.

With regard to lifting the vehicle bonnet up and letting in more oxygen you are right, but that is one of the things you do not do.

I would suggest that all of your staff are given training on how to use a fire extinguisher.

[Tom Sutton]

Green-foam make a good case why you should carry a fire extinguisher but it appears in your case it is not a legal requirement. I imagine to lose your vehicle and equipment would be very serious matter to your business.

[Safelincs]

I believe that if the van is a workplace that a 2kg fire extinguisher is required?!

[Tom Sutton]

Harry why do you suggest a van is a workplace?

[green-foam]

I would say that depends on what you are doing as to if a van is a work place.

Take a delivery company as an example. The vehicle is going around all day from A to B to C to D etc carrying packages in the back which are subsequently delivered, so the vehicle is a place of work. But if you go from your home to your place of work, stay at your place of work all day, then go home later, the vehicle was only used to move you from home to work and back so the van is not a place of work.

Even if it was a car, it can still be a place of work. If The driver is say a risk assessor and has to visit several places a day, then s/he is using the car to get to various places of work for work purposes, but on days where s/he goes from home to the office and back its not a place of work, but since they could use the car at any (reasonable) time for work it would be easier to consider it a place of work.

Say if the driver is a "contractor" going from home to the same place of work for a short while, then moving on to the next job, because the place of work is for ever changing and the driver will have their tools and materials in the vehicle (car or van) then that too is a place of work.

Also would it not depend on what the insurance company say it is? (Providing you give them the correct facts in the first place)

I would say in short, if your vehicle carrys anything "for work" then it is a work place.

[Tom Sutton]

Green-Foam what legal document supports your views? To require somebody to carry a fire extinguisher it has to be stated in law, like the the RR(FS)O requires all workplaces to have fire extinguishers. However The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 states in

Art 6.-(1) This Order does not apply in relation to -

(e) an aircraft, locomotive or rolling stock, trailer or semi-trailer used as a means of transport or a vehicle for which a licence is in force under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994(2) or a vehicle exempted from duty under that Act;

So a vehicle carrying a road tax disc is not a workplace in relation to the RR(FS)O but taxi's, PVC vehicles and vehicles subject to CDG (ADR) are subject to other legislation which requires them to carry fire extinguishers.

[green-foam]

"What legal document supports my views?"

None what so ever, its just my opinion, and what I get told at work. (The fact that my car is my place of work, but we are not given fire extinguishers)

[Safelincs]

Hi Tom

I am not sure if HSE requirements count as legally binding but on http://www.hse.gov.uk/cdg/pdf/fire-ex.pdf

it states that a 2kg extinguisher would be required.

With regards to the question of workplace, the RRO (The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005) http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1541/made states:

'Where the premises are a workplace, the responsible person must ensure that any duty imposed by articles 8 to 22 or by regulations made under article 24 is complied with in respect of those premises.'

and

'"premises” includes any place and, in particular, includes—
(a)any workplace;
(b)any vehicle, vessel, aircraft or hovercraft;'

and

'"workplace” means any premises or parts of premises, not being domestic premises, used for the purposes of an employer’s undertaking and which are made available to an employee of the employer as a place of work'

I assume that the plumbing activities are part of the business of Steve

Harry

[Tom Sutton]

The link to the HSE is a guide to the The Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment (Amendment) Regulations 2011 and as Steve doesn't carry DG then in my opinion this guide does not apply. I believe it applies when an operator of CDG unloads his load and his vehicle is empty he still has to carry a 2 kg ABC extinguisher in the cab when carrying DG he has to carry extinguishers as defined by ADR.

I confused the issue mentioning workplace but I guessed you were suggesting the RR(FS)O applies and in my opinion art 6 (1e) applies and any road vehicle carrying a road tax disc, the RR(FS)O doesn't apply.

Art 6.-(1) This Order does not apply in relation to -

(e) an aircraft, locomotive or rolling stock, trailer or semi-trailer used as a means of transport or a vehicle for which a licence is in force under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994(2) or a vehicle exempted from duty under that Act;

The only other legislation that applies is to mini-buses and PSV and they have to carry extinguishers so IMO builders van are not covered by any legislation that requires them to carry fire extinguisher so they do not have to but I still think it is a sensible thing to do.

[CWEENG]

Had my tyres changed by a mobile engineer lat week,
his van was a mobile workshop, with compressor, generator etc.

I did not look to see if he had an extinguisher in the van, (he had everything else) but this I assume would be classed as a work place all be it was on wheels and in turn should have been fitted out with suitable portable extinguishers.

[Tom Sutton]

You could make augment that it is a workshop but if he has a road tax disc he is exempt from any duty under from the RR(FS)O by virtue of art 6(1) (e) so what other act/order would you apply?

[Guest Michael]

I had the oppertunity to use a fairly old 2Kg Powder extinguisher at a car fire a couple of days ago. It did work fine, extiguishing all flames in the cabin. (side window broken, burning liquid added by a couple of kids). Fire was right hand drivers seat, foot space and extended up the interior between the right hand doors. The whole cabin was destroyed, seats and wall/roof cover melted and instrument panel warped and partially burned through.

After use, I disassembled the unit and found two possible future problems:

1. Starting corrosion in the bottom of the bottle

2. Caking of powder in the top around the valve both outside the riser tube and inside around the spring and valve opening.

The unit was stamped 77 08 05, possible a 2005 unit ?

This was a cheap unit from a hardware store, Safire units are probably better protected against moisture, but it shows that after perhaps 8 years, being stored both indoors at 20 degrees C and outside with down to minus 20, the unit had probably reached the end of life.

So, even 2kg. powder can do a lot if you arrive in time, but it should probably be replaced after 5 years, especially if stored in a vehicle.

Regards

Michael

[Safelincs]

Hi Michael

I do agree, that is not very impressive. Some cheap powder extinguishers just have a five year life span and even say so on the can. I would always recommend products with long warranties. You can get 10 year warranty extinguishers which are a little bit more expensive but will perform when needed most.

Harry

[Guest Frank Hansen]

If you buy a tractor or a vehicle manufactured in another European country with a BS EN3 approved fire extinguisher that is installed by the vehicle manufacturer. The fire extinguisher is labeled with installation date, and the date for the next service (1 yr).

Is it sufficient to perform maintenance in accordance with the regulations by the specified date (1 year after installation). Or is it necessary in this case also to get the installation approved as specified in the maintenance standard?

[Tom Sutton]

I am not aware of any legislation covering your situation but considering an investment of many thousands of pounds it is wise to keep fire protection equipment maintained, in case it is ever required, which is very possible considering the presence of ignition and fuel sources.

Dry Powder Extinguishers should be visually inspected monthly for damage and must be serviced to BS 5306-3:2009 once a year. Powder extinguishers have to be discharged and refilled every five years and the manufacturer’s instructions will tell you what you need to do to keep your extinguisher in good working order. After an extinguisher has been used, even if only partially, it must be recharged according to the manufacturer’s instructions.

See this guide about fire extinguisher maintenance and http://www.firesafe.org.uk/portable-fire-extinguisher-general/ for further details.

[Shawn Bosworth]

If you buy a tractor or a vehicle manufactured in another European country with a BS EN3 approved fire extinguisher that is installed by the vehicle manufacturer. The fire extinguisher is labeled with installation date, and the date for the next service (1 yr).

Is it sufficient to perform maintenance in accordance with the regulations by the specified date (1 year after installation). Or is it necessary in this case also to get the installation approved as specified in the maintenance standard?

This is a kind of borderline situation; the tractor could be considered a workplace and as discussed extensively earlier in this thread we would normally recommend that the unit is serviced in accordance with BS 5306-3:2009. However, some manufactures produce small units, usually with shrouded heads but sometimes also with a standard head, that state on the packaging that they are maintenance free (a simple visual inspection by the user on an annual basis is still required), see images below.

In this case I would say that the unit can be inspected by the driver of the tractor and recorded on the extinguisher with a sticker as well as in the fire safety logbook. It is important to ensure that this inspection is carried out without fail and it is often better to have them checked by a competent person along with any other extinguishers that need servicing.

At the end of the day BS 5306 is not a law, it is a guide. Saying that, the first question that would be asked in the event of a fire where someone was injured would be "did you follow the appropriate guidance"? If the answer to that is no then the questions will definitely get harder!

Hope that helps.

[Tom Sutton]

RR(FS)O article 6. (1) This Order does not apply in relation to, (e) a vehicle for which a licence is in force under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 or a vehicle exempted from duty under that Act; and IMO this applies to a tractor, if so it is not a workplace under the RR(FS)O, consequently it is up to the owner to decide what to do.

I believe a tractor is a vehicle exempted from duty under that Act and therefore not subject to the RR(FS)O so there is no legal requirement to service/maintain the extinguisher. However I agree with you it should be serviced/maintained in accordance with BS 5306-3:2009 to protect a valuable investment, I do it for my car and that is nowhere expensive as a tractor. Also I agree with you if it is a sealed unit follow manufacturers instructions and ditch when it is cheaper to buy a new one.