Guest MHO Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 I have recently had a fire door assessment carried out on a building which is 18 years old. The assessment has failed every fire door on the 3 hinge rule. There are some other hardware issues, but as a new build I am sure the facility would have been assessed and passed - so my query is whether "grandfather" rules apply in this case or is there a need to update to meet current legislation on existing doors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Ashdown MAFDI Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 Hi MHO, You don't say if the building has had any work done regarding the fire doors that would be subject to current building regulations. So assuming the answer is no and the fire doors were installed 18 years ago when the building was built, the question is: Do you need to upgrade to three hinges per fire door? A fire door inspector should check several points (depending on the fire door rating) regarding the hinges: a) That they are suitable for the fire door and in good serviceable condition, b) That all correct size fixing screws are present and that the hinges are securely fixed to the door and frame and c) That there are three or more hinges fitted at the correct positions either because its a requirement to comply with the evidence of performance for the fire door or to comply with BS 8214 the Code of Practice for Timber Based Fire Doors. Timber based fire doors (unless very small cupboard doors) should have three or more hinges to meet the required fire separation performance by helping to prevent or limit distortion of the door at mid-height in a fire situation. The fire performance of the door can only be as good as the hinge fixings used to secure it to its door frame. So if there are three hinges rather than two then the fire performance will that much better! Fire doors are covered by the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 and Article 17 of the Order requires that Fire Doors...... are subject to a suitable system of maintenance and are maintained in an efficient state, in efficient working order and in good repair. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1541/article/17/made Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sutton Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 BS EN 1935:2002 Building hardware. Single-axis hinges. Requirements and test methods, appendix E deals with hinges used on fire doors with self closers, which state self closer increase the loading on hinges therefore three hinges should be fitted. Because now, front fire doors of flats are fitted with self closers, which has not always been the case, they should be fitted with three hinges. In the 1960,s access to flats was by means of open walkways and local councils used a concept of fire safety called smoke dispersion. Later on, access was enclosed but they kept the smoke dispersal concept and did research to keep escape routes clear of smoke logging and provided 1 sq m of natural ventilation in each corridor allowing all front doors to be ajar, so front doors were not fitted with self closers, consequently two hinges were allowed. In 2005 the fire service became the enforcing authority and the guidance became a hybrid of smoke dispersal and containment which resulted in front doors requiring self closers which now required tree hinges. However it is all about risk assessment and there is no hard and fast rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Matt Posted July 27, 2018 Report Share Posted July 27, 2018 when is it acceptable fit two hinges? Half nominal fire doors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sutton Posted July 28, 2018 Report Share Posted July 28, 2018 BS EN 1935:2002 Building hardware. Single-axis hinges says that all fire doors fitted with self closers or hold open devices should have three hinges of group 12,13,or 14. This is to prevent the door warping in use or in a fire, preventing the door closing properly. The manufacturer may in very exceptional circumstances suggest only two hinges may be suitable. Two hinges may be fitted to fire doors not using self closers , but could be subject to warping in a fire so it is wise to fit three hinges, so other than fire doors to very small cupboard doors, all fire doors should have three hinges. I think the problem is the british standards they try to cover all the eventualities which adds to confusion, I would always fit three hinges unless I have documentation evidence to the contrary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MGFRA Posted September 4, 2018 Report Share Posted September 4, 2018 QUESTION In regard to fire doors and the number of hinges etc, I understand that the third hinge is a requirement not just to deal with the additional weight of a fire door but to prevent or resist the door bowing centrally with the heat. Is there a set distance for hinges in relation to fire doors? I ask as I know for many years heavier doors were fitted with 3 hinges (2 at the top and 1 at the bottom) many hospitals are like this. I have more recently noted that there are many fire doors that are indeed fitted with three rated hinges BUT again two hinges at the very top and one at the very bottom of the door. My question is how does this therefore meet the fire door aspect of preventing and resisting the door bowing in the middle?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Ashdown MAFDI Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 The certification data sheet or technical manual will provide details for hinge positions for the particular fire door. If you can find out the door type and manufacturer then contact them for advice. There are timber based fire doors that allow the third hinge to be fitted as 'two at the top' as an alternative to central to door leaf height. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sutton Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 There a number of reasons why three hinges and higher grade are recommended, check out BS EN 1935:2002. For instance fire doors fitted with self closers with backcheck or hold open devices three hinges are recommended and the third hinges should be located 200mm below the top hinge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sutton Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 Further to my previous submission the need for three hinges are necessary because of the weight of the door and any theoretical increase of mass, because self closers are installed. Also prior to the 80's any bowing of the door could open the gap between the door and the frame allowing heat and smoke to pass through, but now this is not a problem, providing the door is well fitting, with the recommended gaps, because intumescent strips are installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest AMF Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 Hi with regard to fire doors (on single staircase grade II building), strips and seals have been added but they are not provided with third hinges - my question is can you add the extra hinge without compromising "Historic England" and or local authority requirements? Thank you in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sutton Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 I think the answer is to speak to them and get their views on thier matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BPW Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 Hi, if the third hinge is to prevent the door bowing, why do aluminium frames, in a typical fire and sound partition, only ever have 2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sutton Posted February 26, 2020 Report Share Posted February 26, 2020 Most fire doors have three hinges but it depends how it was tested, this information should appear on the documentation that comes with the door set and could have passed using two hinges. Check out BS EN 1935: 2002. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darren Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 When using fire rated door hinges on a fire door should you put an intumescent hinge pad under each leaf of the hinge? If it is an FD30 door would you use one pad under each leaf and on an FD60 door would you use 2 pads under each leaf, thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil ashdown Posted March 12, 2020 Report Share Posted March 12, 2020 Generally speaking, intumescent gaskets are not usually necessary for FD30 timber based fire doors but are necessary for FD60. However, different door leaves may have different requirements so where the door leaf can be identified to its installation instructions or data sheet then the information about requirements for hinges should be followed in its entirety. The intumescent gasket, where fitted, is required behind both hinge blades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darren Posted September 23, 2020 Report Share Posted September 23, 2020 Hi, we have a double door going into our open plan kitchen dinner area. We have a loft extension also. All doors are fire doors. the kitchen double doors had self closers on top like a school would, so we want to replace with self closing hinges. It has 3 on each door so will replace as such. Firstly, do we actually need these as not seen any new builds with self closing doors...and secondly there are Intumescent strips around the frame, but I’ve been left with a gap inbetween both doors when shut, about 4mm, my builder reckons when the strips are applied to the door edges this would seal it, does this sound right, as not seen any domestic doors with those strips on...? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil ashdown Posted September 24, 2020 Report Share Posted September 24, 2020 The current building regulations (England & Wales) that apply to dwelling houses can be found here https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200135/approved_documents/63/part_b_-_fire_safety Appendix C on page 134 deals with Fire Doors. Section C5 deals with self-closing requirements and Table C1 deals with positions of fire doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dash Posted April 29, 2021 Report Share Posted April 29, 2021 Thank you Tom Sutton, over the last 8 years on this thread, you have demonstrated an insane knowledge of fire door regulations. I have absorbed some of the knowledge in the last 3 minutes. My question is, building control want less than 4mm gap all around the firedoors. But the MVHR (whole house ventilation system) wants an air gap under each door to allow air movement between supply and extract rooms. So which rule do I go for? Thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Sutton Posted May 3, 2021 Report Share Posted May 3, 2021 Does the fire door require to be able to control cold smoke because if it is a fd30 fire door the maximum 4mm gaps only apply to the sides and the top, if it is a FD30s it would also include the threshold gap or fit cold smoke brushes and you would need controlled ventilation panels. You never said what type of premises it is, domestic or commercial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike North Posted May 4, 2021 Report Share Posted May 4, 2021 the door should resist passages smoke to a given performance standard when pressurised from one side at “ambient” temperature to limit the amount of cold smoke passing from one side to the other. The requirements specifically exclude any performs for the threshold, the key point is that ADB only requires the head and jambs to have a performance form standard in respect to cold smoke leakage. When pressurisation is being used in a building as part of the active fire safety provisions then the requirement for smokes seals on the threshold of doors is increase and it is these conditions word threshold sealing would need to be considered So long as there is no pressurisation present, the only statutory requirement is for head and jambs to resist the passage of cold smoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Karen Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 Hi Tom, I have read your messages with much interest. Following a fire risk assessment we were told that for 4 of our 5 flats, in a Regency style building that was converted in 1985, we must fit FD30s as the front doors as each of these opens onto a communal hallway. The assessor could not see that they might be fire doors, so he assumed they were not. Since then, having followed your posts, I have discovered that each door has three hinges with offset screws and a Perko self closer, is 44mm wide and on the inside jamb, (under the scraped away paint,) has a plug that is a blue centre with a white surround. When gently let go - the doors slam shut on their latches. According to information I have found, this plug refers to the BWF Scheme in accordance with BS476 Part 8 1972. The icon of the plug has the following statement: 'With specified intumescent in frames or doors 30/30.' At the bottom of the little table, it states: 'Remember Blue core means intumescent must be fitted in accordance with manufacturers instructions either in the door or frame.' I have copied both those statements correctly, I think - I am not sure what each actually means. Can you clarify this for me? There is also some old 'foam-type' material stuck round the door frames. Might these actually be fire doors? Thanks for your help. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthonyB Posted August 4, 2021 Report Share Posted August 4, 2021 Yes, these are fire doors, there should be intumescent strips in the door or frame. The foam may be to stop noisy slamming shut and for insulation. The Perko chains would need to be replaced and you may need cold smoke seals, but a new doorset sounds OTT. Here is the guide that should have been used - it doesn't require complete new doors and frames in all cases: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fire-safety-in-purpose-built-blocks-of-flats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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