richardinnorwich

Hi all, Hoping for some thoughts and advice on the above, fitting fd30s flat entrance doors. We're trying to make sure we've got the maximum amount of flexibility when it comes to fitting the doors and notice that some doors we're looking at are stating max trim on edges of 3mm where others are giving 10 mm as the max. I'm assuming that it's dependent on the thickness of the manufacturers hardwood lipping? This leads me to my next question, I've seen an fd30 door that's advertised as with or without lipping!! guessing that the without lipping option leaves you to add it yourself but don't see how that can have a certificate. Is it possible to fit a door without lipping? When it comes to the frames and their fitting I'm only finding snippits of info, I've put together a mini spec from what I've found but wonder if anyone can suggest a definitive one that will keep the fire door inspector happy. Fixings: must be within 100mm of top and bottom and for the rest of the frame no further apart than (getting 2 different measurements for this) 500? or 600mm?, any frame packers should be hardwood and recessed 10mm from the frame edge, space between frame and wall should be no more than 10mm and should be packed with mineral wool and finished with intumescent sealant. I can't find any spec for the finishing of the fixing heads i.e. whether a 2 part filler is acceptable or whether a timber plug needs to be used. As always thanks in advance for any help or links to info that you can share.

Thanks Neil, some great guidance (as usual). I'd spent a couple of hours searching for the Urea glue with no joy and your recommendation took me to what I needed in one click. I was really interested to see your comment regarding stiles thickness, we've got one door that's only got a couple of mm hardwood lipping left so we can see the softwood stile in the rebate for the intumescent strips. Our carpenter was talking about maybe using a 12mm thick lipping to give us a bit more of a safety margin but now I'm concerned that's going to take away too much of the softwood stile, is it something that's an issue or is it OK to do? I'm also looking for some advice on training too, as a director for the freehold residents management company is there any kind of course/ certification around for that role or the 'responsible person' role. I'm probably not looking for fire door inspection certification level but it would be nice to have something to show that I know the current standards & regulations. Thanks again, Richard

Hi again all, back to the hive mind for advice and guidance. We've got a couple of notional/nominal FD30 (soon to be FD30S with the addition of intumescent smoke seals) flat entrance doors that need re-lipping as they've been planed below 6mm in the past. We're looking to trim them down and add 8mm hardwood lipping before rebating to take the 15x4mm intumescent smoke seals. My question is a three parter; 1. I'm assuming that the 6mm minimum is for the lipping itself and you can rebate the intumescent strips into that without having to allow and extra 4mm for the rebate (i.e. making the minimum 10mm in this case)? 2. I'm getting differing info on what glue you have to use; Urea Formaldehyde, Polyurethane and PVA are mentioned as OK by a couple of manufacturers for FD30, only noting that PVA can't be used for FD60 so not sure which one to go for to be on the safe side, might also need to be able to show a data sheet for compliance? 3. For any of the glues recommended for question 2, where can I get them, in a reasonable quantity? The only ones I've come across for the Urea ones are factory production sizes at a couple of hundred quid a time and we're probably only gong to need it for a few doors? Thanks in advance, Richard

Hi Ian. I'm in a very similar role to you and with very similar mid 80s built flats in similar configurations (no 3 flats to a floor though) all ours fall under the small block scenario. I share your frustrations in finding a definitive source of information, I had a very similar post to yours a while back. I have to say this forum is the best resource I've found over the last six years for good information on various fire topics and although you might not get a definitive answer on here you will get people pointing you to relevant sources of information and giving you good solid opinions based on their knowledge and experience. I find it incredibly frustrating that multiple government publications on the same topic differ and aren't crystal clear on what needs to be done. We have 'notional' flat entrance fire doors that are of a good fit and in good order, whilst according to the current regs there is no obligation for us to upgrade or replace them as they are classed as satisfactory we took what we thought was a common sense approach to improve the existing doors and upgraded as follows; - Made sure that all door edges had no more than a 4mm gap - Fitted new CE marked hinges - Fitted New intumescent letterboxes - Fitted Intumescent brush strips - Fitted intumescent hinge pads - Wrapped all locks/spyholes with intumescent sheet, backed all ironmongery with same - Max 3mm gap at bottom of door, the best solution we found was to fit a hardwood threshold, avoided issues with carpet height and hassle of drop down bars and future repairs. - Intumescent mastic seal between door frame and brickwork. -Checked overhead closers operated correctly and adjusted/replaced where necessary. Think I've listed everything. Hope it helps

Hi all, were undertaking some upgrade/repair works to 30 minute flat entrance doors. We've had an inspector do an informal pre inspection of a few of them before commissioning a full report and he's raised a couple of points that I wanted to run by the collective. - Pin holes from where an old draught brush strip had been fitted/redundant screw holes from where the old closer was fitted need filling. I was planning on using Envirografs intumescent wood filler product number 64. Never used it before, sounds like the product for the job, anyone got any experience with it or alternatives? - Chip in bottom of door. A small section no bigger than a thumbnail (2-3mm deep)at the bottom edge where the veneer off the face of the door has caught on something and snapped off. It seems a little extreme for a fail but again planning on using the Envirograf rather than messing around cutting and matching a square of veneer. Any thoughts? - A dent in the rear of the door. Again feels a bit strong as a fail, no splintering of the wood on the door, all in tact and smooth but yes it is a dent(1.5-2mm deep at the centre) looks like someone bashed into it with some soft furniture. Not really sure what to do about this one! As always any advice or guidance gratefully received. Thanks

Hi all, looking at doing some upgrades to existing 'Nominal' fire doors that are flat entrance doors. Been looking at metal thresholds that have intumescent brush strips in them, a little bit concerned that the brushes will get worn down really quickly and require constant replacement. Has anybody used them/got any feedback on their durability/suitability Thanks, Richard

Hi Anthony, thanks for your response, it's good to know that the document has a status and provides evidence of compliance. The section that I quoted was out of the document Neil referenced "fire safety in small blocks of flats" I already stated that there are no common area doors, only flat entrance doors. The whole section (page 24, right hand side) states: "Maintenance of all fire doors. It is important that all fire doors and their self-closing devices are checked on a regular basis (at least every six months in the case of fire doors within common parts, and preferably annually in the case of flat entrance doors) to make sure that they maintain the protection to escape routes" I agree it would be wise to follow the guide but the guide isn't giving a specific time period just "preferably annually". If it said "preferably annually but a minimum of once every 2 years" that would provide a definitive timescale, but it doesn't hence my query.

Hi Neil, thanks for your response and thanks for the link. That document is one of the ones I've already been looking at and for inspection states "preferably annually in the case of flat entrance doors". 'Preferably' is the bit that seems open to interpretation i.e. it's not mandated that there is a fixed time period for inspection for flat entrance doors whereas communal doors states "at least every six months" (no wriggle room). Also interested to see that they don't specify a gap tolerance for the bottom of the door. Historically I've seen 8-10mm as acceptable but this document says "gaps at the bottom of the doors should be as small as practicable" Any thoughts on that one. Thanks

Hi everyone, I'm reading some conflicting information on how often Flat entrance Fire doors (not communal areas, lobby doors etc.) need to be inspected and the level of inspection/FRA required. The blocks that I'm asking for are all under 11m and meet all the criteria for the guidance that applies to "small blocks of flats". The articles/sites that I'm getting the info from are non-commercial and government sites, some seem to be saying that beyond an initial inspection, inside and out( gaps, seals, hinges, closer, intumescents etc) to establish that they comply with regs all that is required from that point is an external inspection to make sure it's still a good fit with no obvious signs of damage and that it hasn't been replaced. Other sites seem to be suggesting that they need and inside and out inspection with a check on gaps close etc. Within those differences the time periods for either inspection seems to vary, some saying annually, some every2 or 5 years, some suggesting that it's down to property owner to notify of any issues. Any guidance would be great, if you could supply a link/reference to the source material so I can reference it that would be even better. Thanks, Richard

Hi Anthony, thanks for your response glad you think they fall into the notional door category. Just got a slight query on whether the doors qualified as 30minute doors (without the intumescent strips) when they were installed, I should have mentioned that they were new builds in the mid 80s, as there's around 50 flats in total, seems surprising that building control would sign them all off if they didn't comply, although it was the time of "Auf wiedersehen Pet"

Hi everyone, before I get to my topic I'd just like to say a huge thankyou to the admin/mods/contributors of this forum, it's been an invaluable resource so far. So here's my query, me and my neighbours have just received a letter from the managing agents of our development (a mix of 2 and 3 storey blocks) saying that after a fire risk assessment we all have to upgrade (not replace) our front doors to comply with current regulations by retro-fitting intumescent seals and smoke strips and ensuring that hinges and closers comply. The doors are marked with a blue dot in a white circle and have 25mm doorstops for smoke control and are stated as being in good condition and fit on the report, the assessor is saying that without smoke seals they're only a 20 minute door so need them fitted (they appear to be ignoring the 25mm stops). I've studied all the literature I can find on this and focused on the 'Local Government Association guide to fire safety in purpose built blocks of flats 2011' (link courtesy of here) as this seems to be the fire safety bible and it pretty much says that if the door is original to the build (in good condition and fit) it would have complied with fire regs of the time and (whilst it might be desirable) there is no need to upgrade (the only exception being the rising butt hinges, all of ours have overhead closers). I got hold of the number for the assessor and called them to query it and was told that the doors needed to have 25mm doorstops and seals to comply, I mentioned that the Local government association guidance had a different view on it and got a very short and swift "new regulations just came in". I've hunted high and low, found a few new government documents on the topic the most recent being July of this year, but nothing that says the situation has changed with regards to existing fire doors and having to upgrade in fact the most recent documents say to refer back to the LGA guidance. If I'm missing it please can someone point me in the right direction and can you clarify whether this work needs to be done. My concern is that the managing agents are just applying a blanket policy across all their properties to cover their butts because they know they can't force us to replace the doors p.s. we all own a share of the freehold so we are the freeholders. Thanks in advance, Richard