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Everything posted by AnthonyB
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If the separation is to 60 minutes the shop doesn't need to be linked to the flats and that is why Building Control didn't require it. The shop can then be assessed in isolation & if a small unit where a fire is going to be readily detected by the staff and small enough for a simple alarm of a shout, whistle, horn or gong to be heard throughout the unit, then it doesn't require a fire alarm system. If it's larger then a commercial fire alarm system to BS5839-1 (the flats have a residential system to BS5839-6) would be required with the legal minimum for a shop being called Category M consisting of manual call points ('break glasses'). Whether detection is required is based on layout and use or whether early warning for property protection (not a legal requirement, purely a business & insurance decision) is desired.
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Building regulations, the fire safety guides and the relevant British Standard BS7273-4:2015 all support your tenant's fire risk assessors standpoint in that doors used for escape with access control works should - fail to open on power failure - have a double pole isolator to the lock supply for emergency release (the green break glass) - interface with the fire alarm system As you should have a fire risk assessment for your common areas your competent assessor would be best placed to advise if you can deviate and putting the justification in your FRA. You shouldn't have false alarms either out of hours, this would indicate an improperly maintained system or poorly designed one or poor management allowing an environmental trigger to occur.
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How often do I have to carry out fire safety training?
AnthonyB replied to a topic in Evacuation Plans
Was this a training provider that told you this? The law hasn't changed at all and the relevant Government Guidance currently doesn't set this frequency either - it does state that the frequency is determined by the risk assessment so it is possible that in some premises it may well be appropriate for quarterly training, but it certainly isn't law nor advised either as a standard frequency.- 10 replies
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Possible breach of article 13 of the Fire Safety Order (relating to escape routes including their protection by fire doors) which is a criminal offence. The employer would be liable, plus any staff with control over an issue could be liable as well depending on the circumstances. If you are getting nowhere then the fire service would be your next port of call assuming you don't have a union to involve first.
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All it sounds like they are doing is creating an inner room, which if travel distances were OK before will remain acceptable. There would need to be one of the following: - Vision panel between inner room & access room; or - Automatic Detection (smoke) to the access room; or - The partition between the inner and access rooms stopping at least 500mm below the ceiling
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Hotel fire safety concerns - who should I contact?
AnthonyB replied to a topic in Fire Risk Assessments
If it's a H&S concern it would be the environmental health department of the London Borough in which the hotel is located. If a fire safety one it's London Fire Brigade's Enforcement Teams, contact your local borough for more info https://www.london-fire.gov.uk/community/your-borough/ -
It's not a regulation, but the latest edition of the signage standards (ISO 7010) do say exit signs should include text unless in buildings where only staff would need to understand the signage. It's not retrospective unless a risk assessment deems it so (which any sensible one is unlikely to do so except in certainly specific cases). Of course it's impossible to comply with where you need internally illuminated exit signs - they are still making these with obsolete arrows and symbols on so you won't see text legends for a long time yet!
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Your answer is here (including the requirements of older standards and when they can stand and when they don't): https://www.local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/fire-safety-purpose-built-04b.pdf
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2 litre or 6 litre foam extinguisher for a flat?
AnthonyB replied to Manu_2000's topic in Fire Extinguishers
Water mist is preferred as foam cannot be used on two of the key causes of domestic fire - Cooking oils & electrical equipment. The smallest 1.4l water mist wold be sufficient -
Change your contractor - they are trying to fleece you by scare tactics by saying it's the law. Firstly it's not and secondly it's been in the guidance for a lot longer than 6 months! Common sense and a risk based approach dictates that smaller areas, especially if only one exit, would be more than amply covered by a single unit. You will never get prosecuted for this, the only time you might have to accept the overkill is if your insurer insists. The Standards are influenced by those who make and sell extinguishers or represent their trade and are not as objectively independent as they should be.
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I'd double check Scottish Technical Standards as they are increasingly different from England & Wales in may aspects.
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Final exit door direction.
AnthonyB replied to Steve Blakemore's topic in Fire Doors and Accessories
Do bear in mind that as a Care Home it should be operating progressive horizontal evacuation and you may not be putting 60 through the route at once, so you may be able to justify the existing configuration. -
requirement for old buildings to be of modern fire safety standard
AnthonyB replied to a topic in Fire Risk Assessments
PAS 79:2012 Fire Risk Assessment. Guidance and a recommended methodology -
Your internal doors are likely to have been fire doors, the standard at the time (CP3 chapter lV part 1: 1971 referenced in The Building Regulations 1985 - assuming the conversion was Building Regulation compliant) was to have all doors as self closing fire doors other than bathrooms and toilets. These would have been solid doors with 25mm stops and internal chain type closers. You can't make anything worse than the original standard at the time of install so you would need fire doors (but only FD20 20 minute standard, although in practice they can be difficult to find so a FD30 blank is often used) which wouldn't need intumescent seals just the stop. You don't need the self closer any more though - current standards don't require them any more except to the front door.
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Final exit door direction.
AnthonyB replied to Steve Blakemore's topic in Fire Doors and Accessories
It's based on numbers and persons using the door. Normally 60 persons is the cross over from good practice to a must, based on official benchmarks going back many decades, if there are gatherings of the public where they could be a mass panic and the risk of crushing this can affect the risk assessment. -
There is the old fashioned method of interlinking via cable using standard interlink smoke alarms. I doubt they transmit continuously as the batteries wouldn't last too long but the manufacturer will know the full info - if it's any use to you they transmit on 868MHz
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The old answer was the last flight of external escape stairs was cantilevered and only lowered to ground when used: You need to consult your Approved Inspector or Local Authority Building Control immediately with your issue - they may not accept certain solutions, the fold out ladder is unlikely to comply, chutes have been accepted but normally in very specific circumstances and not for the public. You may find it more appropriate to seek a fire engineered solution to avoid the need for the alternative route - bigger projects than yours have avoided the need for entire stairs by use of domestic sprinklers and a enhanced smoke control solution.
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No, any fire alarm system in a place of work must have two power supplies to meet the Health & Safety (Safety Signs & Signals) Regulations, which usually means mains and battery. You would need all alarms in the relevant area to sound, not just one in a local area. This assumes the bays are not open air and the system isn't a proper BS5839-1 wireless fire alarm system where individual devices have dual battery power.
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Depends on the make of panel - some have far greater ability for complex C&E than others. It's not by any means beyond possibility though. You could ask on firealarmengineers.com/forum
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Do flat owners under their own management need fire risk assessment?
AnthonyB replied to a topic in Fire Alarm Systems
Yes it could affect insurance and could be a criminal offence without needing for a fire to even occur as there only needs to be the potential risk to life rather than it being realised by an incident. I'd get a new FRA though by someone that knows what they are doing and the specific standards for domestic premises- a common areas only system would be inadequate as it would only sound when the escape was already affected by fire and would draw people from the relative safety of their flat into the smoke & heat filled stair, plus wouldn't penetrate the rooms of the flats with enough audibility to wake occupiers. Also, depending on the nature of the construction of the building and it's conversion it may not need the alarm at all. -
Should emergency lights show a green or red light?
AnthonyB replied to a topic in Emergency Lighting
The single light on a standard EL fitting (green or if a very old unit red) shows the mains supply to the fitting is on and the batteries should be charging, if the unit is still showing it's LED it would imply it's mains feed is still on and the light is fed off a different circuit to the one on the test switch you used......or that something else is wrong. If it has more than one LED then it's likely to be a self testing unit and could have a meaning specific to the fitting. -
You should have a smoke & heat alarm installation which would warn you before the route becomes untenable. How old is the building and it's conversion to current configuration?
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They need to be blue as a mandatory type sign in order to satisfy Regulation 4(4) and (5) of the Health & Safety (Safety Signs & Signals) Regulations 1996 as defined in SCHEDULE 1 PART 1 "Minimum requirements concerning safety signs and signals at work" It's a moot point as to whether it makes a practical difference as these signs don't include a specific pictogram, older buildings sometimes have the previous style of fire door keep shut sign using a red diamond on white with text in the middle, I certainly don't loose sleep over it - it's better than nothing - so would consider it a low priority compared to other signage issues (including no sign at all).
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You would expect to find a fire detection & warning system which, depending on how the premises are viewed (HMO, educational sleeping risk, etc), would be a commercial grade system of call points, sounders and detectors linked to a control panel or at the very least interlinked mains smoke & heat alarms, with detection to at least the stair and landings and usually the kitchen and other rooms as well. The stair would usually need to be protected with fire resisting construction & fire doors, exceptionally good fitting normal doors are accepted depending on how the premises are classified. Basically the premises should be set up so that a fire is detected and kept out of the stair with more than sufficient time to escape before the stair itself is compromised. If you have concerns then depending on the status of the premises either the fire service or local authority housing department are the enforcing authority.
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As long as the cables remain metal clipped in place it shouldn't be an issue. EL cable doesn't need to be fire resistant unless part of a central battery system (not seen much these days)