Neil ashdown

"The bottom edge of the doors incorporates a rebated drop-down door seal as the door-edge to cill gap is about 10mm. However when the door is closed the seal when dropped still leaves a gap of about 2.5mm. I appreciate this is less than the 3mm limit for a door-edge to cill gap where no smoke seal would be required, but I would have thought that where a smoke seal is fitted it ought to bridge the gap completely, especially as with the drop-down type there's no risk of interfering with door self-closure". The seal would've been subject to a performance test fitted to a door, so it's best to contact the manufacturer with this question. I would suggest starting with Lorient at https://www.lorientuk.com/contact

If the door leaf to door frame gaps are not as those stated in the fire door's product data sheet/installation instructions, then the the installation is non-compliant. If the smoke seal does not fill the gap (though it shouldn't be so tight as to hinder self-closing) then it will not effectively restrict spread of ambient temperature smoke. So the installation is non-compliant. The installer should work to the relevant product installation data sheets and to the relevant British and European Standards. The relevant standards / documents are: Product installation data sheet for the door leaf and the seals, BS 8214:2016 Timber-based fire doors Code of practice, BS 476 part 31.1, and BS EN 1634-3. More information at the website of the Intumescent Fire Seals Association: https://www.ifsa.org.uk/

So you have four flats and each flat has an FD30s flat entrance door? Then you have a lobby with an FD30s door but you don't say if the lobby is to a stair case, to a lift or whether all the flats are ground floor but with a lobby before the main entrance door to the block? Your question seems to be about the door that opens to and from the outside to the block of flats? If I have that right, then this door would not usually need to be a fire resisting door (unless there's a particular reason why that door needs to provide fire protection) because the door opens to/from an outside area. Guidance at the website https://www.local.gov.uk/fire-safety-purpose-built-flats may be useful?

Carry out a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment to establish where fire doors (if any) are required. Guidance at: https://www.london-fire.gov.uk/safety/the-workplace/takeaways-cafes-and-restaurants/ and https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fire-safety-risk-assessment-offices-and-shops for example. Depends on the risk of fire at the location, the assessment could include (but the list is not exhaustive): Is there possible risk at the storage room? Are flammables stored there / is there risk of ignition? What electrical equipment or installation is there at the location? If there was a fire at the location, how would people at the building be affected? Is there any sleeping accommodation? Are there detectors and/or other fire safety devices? Would a fire at that location affect ease of escape?

Hi Brian, Hope you don't mind me giving an answer in the interim. I am sure Tom will also give his answer as soon as he can. Generally, timber-based fire resisting doors should have a gap of 2mm to 4mm between the edge of the door leaf and the inside of the door frame reveal. They should also sit within the door frame reveal and not stand proud. There are also specific requirements in terms of the gap at the threshold, generally 3mm maximum for doors that must provide restricted cold smoke spread and 10mm for those that don't. It is acceptable to use a suitable threshold seal where the 3mm cannot be achieved. These are the requirements for installation of timber based fire doors and where different gaps are permitted, the door leaf installation instructions will state the requirements. Persons carrying out installation and maintenance to timber based fire doors should refer to the door manufacturers data sheet/installation instructions and BS 8214:2016 Timber based fire door assemblies Code of practice. The fire risk assessment for the building should note how critical the fire doors are to the fire strategy and therefore to the safety of relevant persons in a fire. If the fire risk assessment deems it necessary for those particular fire doors to perform to their design requirements in terms of fire and smoke compartmentation then it will be necessary to maintain the fire doors to the manufacturer's installation requirements, this would include gaps. It is worth noting that many common types of smoke seals depend on correct gaps in order for them to perform to the relevant standard.

Depends on the certification body or training provider. If you are looking at third party certification and/or training for installation and/or inspection of fire doors, undertake sufficient research before you part with your money. Satisfy yourself that you are getting the best and most comprehensive that is available.

Composite construction fire doors for the flat entrance (timber doors a little less often) often use a cold smoke seal that performs more than one function. The person responsible for procurement of the fire doors and the installation works should satisfy themselves that the smoke sealing performance for the door-set is confirmed by suitable documentary evidence of performance to BS 476 part 31.1 / BS EN 1634-3.

You should follow the installation requirements set out in the fire door leaf manufacturers instructions. The leaf of a timber based fire door assembly is always the main component of a fire door assembly, therefore installation of the other components of the assembly should be installed in accordance with the relevant installation instructions, data sheet or technical manual for that particular door leaf. However, there is some standardisation with regard to frame fixings and the door leaf manufacturer will often refer the installer to BS 8214: 2016 in the case of door frame installation for timber-based fire doors. Generally fixings should be 100mm from the top, 100mm from the bottom and at no more than 500mm centres. Fixings should penetrate a suitable wall substrate (ie. fire rated to the required rating) by at least 50mm.

The clearance gap is between the edge of the door leaf and the door frame reveal. It should be 2mm to 4mm and the smoke brush or blade should fill the gap but without causing binding as the door self-closes.

What you describe is quite common as the certification label is sometimes damaged when the door is installed. Intumescent edge seals may be fitted to the door frame or alternatively to the door leaf, so they may have been fitted when the door was first installed. From what you say, I assume the black foam you describe is a strip fitted to the corner of the rebate stop? Would need to see it to make any comment. If you are in doubt about the suitability of the doors you could contact a certificated fire door inspector.

The problem is that many of the standard sized fire doors cannot be trimmed above approx 3mm off each vertical edge and 6mm off the bottom. There are minimum requirements in terms of the thickness of the hardwood lippings and because many fire doors have small section framing around a chipboard core the trim allowances are very limited. If you trim too much then the door will be weakened and therefore not provide the required performance. You could possibly fit new fire door frames to suit standard door leaf sizes, depending on the structural openings. If the structural opening sizes won't work for standard sized doors then, sorry looks like its gonna be door blanks.

"Fire door blanks are so ugly!" Fire door blanks do not have to be ugly, there are many types.

Just a couple of questions....... You say the frames are not fire rated. How do you know this? Why not have custom made doors?

The new fire door will come with installation instructions or a technical data sheet. That information document will state door frame and planted stop requirements.

Yes. If the fire door is to the entrance of the flat, you could fit a threshold plate to the floor. If you are concerned about trip hazard, then ramped types are available.

As Tom says, the RR(FS)O defines Competent Person as somebody with sufficient training and experience or knowledge and other qualities. It does not require that the Competent Person has a dedicated qualification. Whether or not it should is subjective and in my opinion depends on a number of factors. Certification is not always a guarantee of quality and with regard to fire door installation the end result depends, as much as anything, on the diligence of the installer.

The seals should fill the gap between edges of the door leaves and the reveal of the door frame at both vertical edges and the top edge. On double leaf doors the seal should fill the gap between the meeting edges too. The seals must not hinder the self-closing action of the doors. You may need to install a smoke seal at the threshold too.

There are two basic types of intumescent strips 1) The type that fits flush and tight into a groove in the edge of the door leaf or into a groove in the door frame reveal and 2) Self adhesive types that fit to the door fame reveal https://www.safelincs.co.uk/fire-and-smoke-seals/?fga=true&msclkid=7837a0ed87c316adc67bfd1a66c4e42c&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=SL Text%3A fire door seals&utm_term=intumescent seals&utm_content=intumescent fire door seals See images below. I expect your door is the entrance door to your flat, in which case smoke seals will also be a requirement.

The requirements for sealing the gap between the fire door frame and surrounding wall are set out in 'BS 8214:2016 Timber-based fire door assemblies: Code of practice' https://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail/?pid=000000000030332501

So long as the hinges are made from steel, suitable to carry the weight of the door, securely fixed and in good condition then there's no legal requirement to replace them. They might sometimes be marked BS7352 which was the standard before the current EN1935. If the hinges are worn or damaged replace all three with CE marked fire rated hinges to minimum grade 11, use a good quality hinge as you may find some modern hinges will wear more quickly than others. If the current hinges have lasted twenty years it would be sensible to replace them, when necessary, with good quality hinges. Just as a matter of interest, current building regulation requirements for hinges for fire doors can be found in paragraph C10 on page 151 of Approved Document B at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/832633/Approved_Document_B__fire_safety__volume_2_-_2019_edition.pdf

It seems that its the building inspector that has to be satisfied, in this case. Therefore submit the data sheet and fire performance evidence for the varnish product to the building inspector. Alternatively contact an independent certificated fire door inspector for help.

Where replacement fire doors to flat entrances or in communal areas is necessary, the survey work is an important job. It should be done by somebody that understands what types and sizes of fire doors are available and how they should be installed. Just for example: Do you replace the door leaf and frame, or just the door leaf? How much can be trimmed from the edge of the door leaf for installation? What is the best type of door leaf construction for the job? What type of lock should be fitted? What are the best types of smoke seals for the particular job? What type of threshold plate and seal should be used? Can a door-viewer or letter-plate be fitted? The better the survey, the better the end result.

Google the term 'Fire Door Training' to find suitable courses.

Generally yes, OK to add hardwood lipping but not added to the existing lipping. Cut off the existing lipping and replace with a thicker one. Hardwood lipping should be minimum 6mm thick and maximum 18mm thick. Generally, the door frame rebate stop should be 12mm or more and intumescent fire seals are necessary. Updating your fire risk assessment will help in identifying which doors need to be fire doors.

The Fire Risk Assessment for the building should identify requirements for fire resisting doors and escape doors. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fire-safety-risk-assessment-offices-and-shops and https://www.asdma.com/knowledge-centre/#six may be useful