Neil ashdown

Good advice! Although it seems Ben is installing the door leaf to an existing frame, hence the head problem. Best practice is always to install a complete new fire door assembly or fire door-set because using an existing door frame means you will carry forward any door frame defects such as: > Has the gap between the frame and the wall been sealed correctly? > Do the hinge positions and lock positions suit the installation requirements for the new fire door leaf? > Does the frame sectional size and material suit the installation requirements new fire door leaf? > Can the door leaf and door frame be aligned correctly? > Is the frame adequately fixed to the wall? Consult BS 8214:2016 Timber-based fire doors Code of practice for information.

HI Ben, Answers based on my knowledge and experience, below: Q: We have to router the head of the door to fit intumescent strip but this ruins the certificate sticker on the door. So we take pics of it before as evidence? A: YES in accordance with the certification data sheet for the fire door leaf and keep a record of the work done and the door's certification. Q: And can we cut head of door to fit out of level frame head too? A: Only if the certification data sheet for the fire door leaf permits. PS. You can find the certification data sheet from the certification number on the 'certificate sticker'. Hope this helps.

Q: Is there any requirement to have handles on a 30 min fire door ? NO Q: I have Yale type night latches with no little button to hold the latch (do they need to be fire rated and stamped ?) YES, if fitted to a fire door the lock should be fire rated Q: and seperate mortice euro locks with no handles but with thumb turn cylinder inside. YES, if fitted to a fire door the lock should be fire rated Q: eg can I have the Yale type latch and two mortice locks with thumb turns ? DEPENDS, check the door manufacturer's data sheet Q: or is that too many locks on one door ? COULD BE, check the door manufacturer's data sheet These links may be useful http://www.firecode.org.uk/Code_of_Practice_hardware_for_fire_and_escape_doors.pdf and https://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail/?pid=000000000030332501 My answers are based on whether it could be possible that the lock might affect the fire performance of the fire door. An incorrectly fitted lock, or one that is not fire rated, could potentially affect the fire resistance performance of a door. This is why fire doors should be installed in accordance with the door manufacturer's requirements. Clearly unless you have checked that the locks fitted are compliant to the installation data sheet for the fire door, there will be some 'unknowns' about the door's fire resistance performance. The more 'unknowns' you have about the doors' fire resistance performance then the greater the potential risk of failure in a fire, so take account of this 'risk' in your fire risk assessment.

There are various types of smoke seal including types that are separate from the intumescent strip. https://www.lorientuk.com/products/architectural-seals/perimeter-seals So the 4mm maximum gap should not be an issue at all and make sure your fire door upgrading contractor has the necessary competence !!

You would need to seek advice from a competent fire door upgrading contractor or fire door inspector. There's a variety of fire door upgrading products on the market but not all doors are suitable for upgrading.

Hi Jake, Yours is a common issue at existing buildings of all types. The issue with fire resisting doors is that the installed fire door should replicate the one tested/assessed to the fire performance tests BS 476 part 22 and/or BS EN 1634-1. The guidance document BS 8214:2016 Timber-based fire doors Code of practice is the standard for installation, inspection, maintenance and repairs for timber-based fire doors. Unfortunately, adding thin strips (1mm to 5mm thick say) of timber would not be a suitable repair. To rectify excessive door leaf to door frame gaps, the preferred method is to either: pack behind hinge blades with suitable low pressure intumescent gasket material whilst taking care that the hanging edge gap remains at 4mm maximum OR to loosen the door frame and use timber folding-wedges to adjust the door to frame gap. Whilst the architraves are removed there exists an opportunity to check that the door frame to wall gap has been sealed correctly. As a last resort it may be necessary to remove the door lipping and fit thicker (at least 6mm) hardwood lippings. These are jobs for Competent Persons. Ensure your maintenance team follow best practice advice https://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail/?pid=000000000030332501 & https://www.asdma.com/knowledge-centre/ Hope this is helpful, Neil.

Hi Steve M, In my experience, having completed the FDIS Diploma, FDIS Transition module (to become CertFDI) and the one day BRE/DHF Fire Door Inspection course, the FDIS package is by far the more comprehensive fire door inspection education package available in the UK. On the other side of the coin, the BRE course can be completed in one day whereas the FDIS package would likely take a number of weeks. You could also look at the Doorcheck one day course at Ilford, I have completed that one too. I must declare that I held the post of FDIS manager for three years, but that shouldn't prevent me from taking an objective view! Hope this brief summary helps. Feel free to contact me with any specific questions. Neil.

Hi Bob, The gap between the door frame and surrounding wall construction would typically be between 5mm and 20mm. BS 8214 is a very useful document in ensuring compliance of this work. Timber packers / folding wedges are preferable to plastic packers but plastic may be used so long as they are cut back by at least 10mm on both sides of the frame and covered over with a bead of intumescent mastic at least 10mm thick. Fire foams tested to BS 476 part 22 or EN1634-1 may be used but only within the scope of the fire test evidence, this may mean using dedicated packers as part of the tested fire sealing system. The image below illustrates the door frame to wall gap tightly packed with mineral wool but note that a 10mm bead of intumescent mastic is required to BOTH SIDES! Hope this helps, Neil.

Hi again Peter, Just to add: The doors as you described them would not be classified as Nominal Fire Doors. A Nominal (or Notional) Fire Door is one where there exists no evidence of fire resistance performance but that in the opinion of the Competent Person would meet the required fire resistance performance. What you describe, is a door that has been upgraded to a fire door using products that have evidence of fire performance when fitted or applied to that particular type of door.

Timber is an excellent material for fire doors because from empirical evidence we can easily predict its likely behaviour in a fire. When subject to fire the timber will burn and a char will form on the burnt surfaces, eventually the burn-rate will cause the door to shrink in size and bow/twist towards the fire...........and then it will fail to provide fire separation. The burn rate of the timber will depend on its density. Therefore the less dense the timber and the thinner the door, the earlier the door will fail and for that reason fire doors are generally at least 44mm in thickness and made from solid timber-based material. When upgrading timber doors to fire resistant doors , it is important to consider the fire performance test evidence for the products used to facilitate the upgrading works. All such products have limitations to their use/performance and the door that is to be upgraded must be comparable in its construction (density, thickness construction type) to the door that was successfully fire tested. Look carefully at the evidence of fire performance for the proposed upgrading products and check they have been successfully fire tested when used with a door of similar type, construction, density and thickness to yours.

Scottish building regulation technical handbook (domestic) can be found here https://www2.gov.scot/Resource/0052/00521748.pdf 2.1 Compartmentation - on page 63 and 2.9.2 Escape within dwellings - on page 86, would appear most relevant. In accordance with Tom, my advice is to consult a local building regulations professional to assist in correct interpretation and that reference is made to the current requirements. An overview of Scottish requirements in terms of fire safety in buildings may be found here https://sp-bpr-en-prod-cdnep.azureedge.net/published/2017/11/3/Scottish-Building-Standards-and-Fire-Safety--A-Brief-Overview/SB 17-73.pdf

Generally speaking, intumescent gaskets are not usually necessary for FD30 timber based fire doors but are necessary for FD60. However, different door leaves may have different requirements so where the door leaf can be identified to its installation instructions or data sheet then the information about requirements for hinges should be followed in its entirety. The intumescent gasket, where fitted, is required behind both hinge blades.

Where possible, loosen the frame fixings to the wall and pack behind the door frame with timber folding wedges. Re-fix the door frame when the correct gaps have been achieved. Clearly, it will be necessary to make good the fire-stopping between the frame and wall. When carrying out these works refer to 'BS 8214:2016 Timber-based fire door assemblies Code of practice' and (where available) the product data sheet/installation instructions for the fire door leaf.

The maximum gap may well be a concern because where the gap is excessive the fire performance of the door may be compromised. The fire risk assessment should identify the fire doors most critical to the fire strategy at the building and these doors should be prioritised where remedial works are deemed necessary.

If they are fire doors you can paint them, but be careful about wrapping them as the fire performance test evidence for fire doors places restrictions on adding facing and edging materials to fire doors. Can you find out which manufacturer made the doors? If so you may be able to get hold of the product data sheet and therefore the information you need.

"The bottom edge of the doors incorporates a rebated drop-down door seal as the door-edge to cill gap is about 10mm. However when the door is closed the seal when dropped still leaves a gap of about 2.5mm. I appreciate this is less than the 3mm limit for a door-edge to cill gap where no smoke seal would be required, but I would have thought that where a smoke seal is fitted it ought to bridge the gap completely, especially as with the drop-down type there's no risk of interfering with door self-closure". The seal would've been subject to a performance test fitted to a door, so it's best to contact the manufacturer with this question. I would suggest starting with Lorient at https://www.lorientuk.com/contact

If the door leaf to door frame gaps are not as those stated in the fire door's product data sheet/installation instructions, then the the installation is non-compliant. If the smoke seal does not fill the gap (though it shouldn't be so tight as to hinder self-closing) then it will not effectively restrict spread of ambient temperature smoke. So the installation is non-compliant. The installer should work to the relevant product installation data sheets and to the relevant British and European Standards. The relevant standards / documents are: Product installation data sheet for the door leaf and the seals, BS 8214:2016 Timber-based fire doors Code of practice, BS 476 part 31.1, and BS EN 1634-3. More information at the website of the Intumescent Fire Seals Association: https://www.ifsa.org.uk/

So you have four flats and each flat has an FD30s flat entrance door? Then you have a lobby with an FD30s door but you don't say if the lobby is to a stair case, to a lift or whether all the flats are ground floor but with a lobby before the main entrance door to the block? Your question seems to be about the door that opens to and from the outside to the block of flats? If I have that right, then this door would not usually need to be a fire resisting door (unless there's a particular reason why that door needs to provide fire protection) because the door opens to/from an outside area. Guidance at the website https://www.local.gov.uk/fire-safety-purpose-built-flats may be useful?

Carry out a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment to establish where fire doors (if any) are required. Guidance at: https://www.london-fire.gov.uk/safety/the-workplace/takeaways-cafes-and-restaurants/ and https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fire-safety-risk-assessment-offices-and-shops for example. Depends on the risk of fire at the location, the assessment could include (but the list is not exhaustive): Is there possible risk at the storage room? Are flammables stored there / is there risk of ignition? What electrical equipment or installation is there at the location? If there was a fire at the location, how would people at the building be affected? Is there any sleeping accommodation? Are there detectors and/or other fire safety devices? Would a fire at that location affect ease of escape?

Hi Brian, Hope you don't mind me giving an answer in the interim. I am sure Tom will also give his answer as soon as he can. Generally, timber-based fire resisting doors should have a gap of 2mm to 4mm between the edge of the door leaf and the inside of the door frame reveal. They should also sit within the door frame reveal and not stand proud. There are also specific requirements in terms of the gap at the threshold, generally 3mm maximum for doors that must provide restricted cold smoke spread and 10mm for those that don't. It is acceptable to use a suitable threshold seal where the 3mm cannot be achieved. These are the requirements for installation of timber based fire doors and where different gaps are permitted, the door leaf installation instructions will state the requirements. Persons carrying out installation and maintenance to timber based fire doors should refer to the door manufacturers data sheet/installation instructions and BS 8214:2016 Timber based fire door assemblies Code of practice. The fire risk assessment for the building should note how critical the fire doors are to the fire strategy and therefore to the safety of relevant persons in a fire. If the fire risk assessment deems it necessary for those particular fire doors to perform to their design requirements in terms of fire and smoke compartmentation then it will be necessary to maintain the fire doors to the manufacturer's installation requirements, this would include gaps. It is worth noting that many common types of smoke seals depend on correct gaps in order for them to perform to the relevant standard.

Depends on the certification body or training provider. If you are looking at third party certification and/or training for installation and/or inspection of fire doors, undertake sufficient research before you part with your money. Satisfy yourself that you are getting the best and most comprehensive that is available.

Composite construction fire doors for the flat entrance (timber doors a little less often) often use a cold smoke seal that performs more than one function. The person responsible for procurement of the fire doors and the installation works should satisfy themselves that the smoke sealing performance for the door-set is confirmed by suitable documentary evidence of performance to BS 476 part 31.1 / BS EN 1634-3.

You should follow the installation requirements set out in the fire door leaf manufacturers instructions. The leaf of a timber based fire door assembly is always the main component of a fire door assembly, therefore installation of the other components of the assembly should be installed in accordance with the relevant installation instructions, data sheet or technical manual for that particular door leaf. However, there is some standardisation with regard to frame fixings and the door leaf manufacturer will often refer the installer to BS 8214: 2016 in the case of door frame installation for timber-based fire doors. Generally fixings should be 100mm from the top, 100mm from the bottom and at no more than 500mm centres. Fixings should penetrate a suitable wall substrate (ie. fire rated to the required rating) by at least 50mm.

The clearance gap is between the edge of the door leaf and the door frame reveal. It should be 2mm to 4mm and the smoke brush or blade should fill the gap but without causing binding as the door self-closes.

What you describe is quite common as the certification label is sometimes damaged when the door is installed. Intumescent edge seals may be fitted to the door frame or alternatively to the door leaf, so they may have been fitted when the door was first installed. From what you say, I assume the black foam you describe is a strip fitted to the corner of the rebate stop? Would need to see it to make any comment. If you are in doubt about the suitability of the doors you could contact a certificated fire door inspector.