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Hi, No straight onto a balcony which then has a door leading to the staircase. So lobbied. Plus two stair. my argument is that this was the standard it was built to so no requirement to bring upto todays standard for smoke control AOVsor even openable windows which is what the FRA says.

Hi I have a small block of flats, two storey and on the first floor are a number of "bay windows" with spandrel panels attached, I cannot find out any product information on them regarding any fire safety performance. Would this be risk assessed as low risk due to the placement and minimal coverage? Thanks in advance.

I'm hoping someone can help me with this. I have come across Green Override break glass units in care homes and schools that are placed on the wall adjacent to an internal fire door fitted with a maglock. The height of the green override unit was about 2 meters, well above head height. The care home I visited had only recently been built so had passed inspection. To me, this seems ridiculous because how would someone that is not particularly tall reach the override unit in an emergency? Any thoughts?

So none of the flats actually open into the stairs? If not no reason at all for smoke control.

If the assessor is a member of a professional body or a registration scheme (which they should and there is little excuse for not being) there is the potential of reporting the issue to them. If you feel you are being required to implement work that is not required you should take the matter to a First Tier Tribunal (Property). I've helped a client win against a council and their two different, but equally incorrect/OTT, risk assessments against unnecessary work - it can be done!

Heat detectors, by their very nature, rarely false alarm due to the fact they are unaffected by steam, aerosols, dust, insects, etc. It will be running on battery until flat and is most likely to be defective - you should replace it with a new one - you can take it down whilst still noisy and until you can get a new mains detector installed it's advisable to put up a cheap battery only detector to keep you covered. https://www.safelincs.co.uk/smoke-alarms/

Subject to travel distances this sounds reasonable - with a layout based on Figures 1 or 4 the total travel distance should not exceed 25m - it is also assumed the escape doesn't pass the kitchen

No, it was most common in London presumably due to their own local building regulations, but isn't an explicit requirement in current Building Regulations guidance.

Hi all, Found this forum due to having my Ei141 smoke alarms going off at 5am in the morning - first time it’s happened so we were very rattled by the sound. apologies I’m not too familiar posting on forums but would like some advice, I’ve called the local council for my property (I live in the UK) who have changed 2 out of the three alarms due to being old according to the person today. No smoke was present or anything of the sort when the alarms went off and they all go off at once which to my understanding is interconnected via mains. im a little worried as I do still have one old potentially faulty alarm? I will be calling for this to be replaced but was informed I may need to wait, I live with someone who is disabled as well as have two kittens and it’s a rather traumatic experience as we were not use to this at all. My question is if I remove the old alarm from the ceiling panel will it cause any issues or potential to set off again despite not being attached to the ceiling panel? tldr: if I remove an interconnected ei141 smoke alarm from its ceiling panel which also does not have its own battery inside can this smoke alarm which has been removed still go off and set off the other alarms? ideally I would like to remove this one and keep the two newer models as I’m worried it is faulty and will set off again which in turn will set off all the alarms.

Could anyone confirm whether the original requirement for intumescent strips & smoke seals came in as part of BS 8214:1990 please? These flats & doors predate the introduction of that standard, but the new assessor is indicating that he beleives the lack of seals indicates the doors were not been installed correctly in the first place (although went on to say he has been unable to prove it).

You would think this stuff should be fairly straightforward for Leaseholders, but it most certainly isn't. Our Managing Agent is still demanding 'certification'. Every company I have spoken to has stated that they are not able to provide certification for a notional fire door as there is no test evidence for it. Our situation is still ongoing. As I didn't receive the 2023 FRA until late 2024, a new risk assessment has come round in early 2025. The Managing Agent selected a different assessor for the new FRA. On the positive side, I was able to ensure he inspected my door as part of the assessment. He was happy with the condition of the door, the operation of the closer, and even seemed satisfied with the gaps. On the less positive side the new assessor seems to take a different attitude to existing notional doors in general. He seems to be suggesting that even existing notional fire doors should have ALL the features of an FD30S door - like fire rated glass with intumescent instead of the georgian wired glass in the existing doors. This does not seem to fit with the guidance that was linked earlier in the thread including things like: 62. Blocks of flats that do not meet the current design benchmarks for means of escape 62.16 Upgrading existing doors simply because they are not fitted with intumescent strips or smoke seals, or fail to meet some other requirement of current standards, should not be made a generic recommendation applicable to all existing blocks of flats 63.23 Benchmarks for existing blocks with a single stairway and with acceptable travel distance, but doors opening directly onto the stairway: Up to four storeys, ‘notional FD30’ doors should be acceptable. Up to six storeys, doors should be at least ‘upgraded FD30S’. Over six storeys, doors should be ‘replacement FD30S’. And this guidance is also highlighted in other published advice: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/check-your-fire-safety-responsibilities-under-the-fire-safety-england-regulations-2022/check-your-fire-safety-responsibilities-under-the-fire-safety-england-regulations-2022 In particular, the guidance advises that ‘notional’ FD30 doors, which satisfied earlier standards for flat entrance doors, will usually continue to be acceptable for compliance with the Fire Safety Order unless there is a need to improve their fire performance to compensate for a specific building design, or shortcomings in other fire precautions. The new FRA does not indicate any 'abnormal' risks in the property to suggest there is a reason to diverge from the guidance. I do not believe there has been any material change to the risks in the property. So now I'm now in the situation where all previous risk assessments in this building up to and including 2023 (from at least 2 different assessors) have viewed the existing notional doors as acceptable providing they are in good condition and well maintained, but the new assessor seems to have formed a diiferent opinion and backs the managing agents demand for certification. I'm currently trying to discover / understand why he has taken a different opinion on this. Are these opinions contestable in any way? I undertsand that the local Fire Service should be the final arbiter, but is there a process for Leaseholders to raise concerns about FRAs?

In the case of a CO alarm it should be near the fuel burning appliance, in the case of a smoke alarm it should be in the general area, and or near the sleeping area. In the case of a CO alarm ideally it should be vertical near any fuel burning appliance. In the case of a smoke alarm ideally it should be mounted high up (NOT at the top of an apex) on a horizontal plane, vertical is acceptable. In neither case should a detector be left on top of a cupboard or shelf since any rising gas (CO) or smoke particles will carry on past the device. You may find that "blu tac" will be of use for temporarily securing the device vertically. You should read the instructions that come with the particular device you have purchased

The way this forum works, asking on a bank holiday Monday means your question does not show for a few days.🤐 Assuming you have not damaged your alarm, turning it off at the mains is not a good idea, since that means you will be making it run on its battery. You do not say how old it is, most smoke / heat alarms have an expected 10 year life after which they should be changed. Have you cleaned it (With a vacuum cleaner to remove any dust or insects?) As smoke / heat / CO alarms have no user serviceable parts, the only thing you can do if you still have problems is replace it.

Yes

Hi. I know that internal doors within flats should meet FD20 min standard and should be shut during the night. However, if said doors have glass panels above them for borrowed light, should the glass be fire rated. Cheers Graham.

Hi Neil, Thank you for the feedback! Steph

Hi I am travelling to Spain and one of my air b n bs has not fire alarm. Quite common it seems in Spain as hardly any have them when I search. I cannot find a travel fire alarm only CO alarms. However, ideally I would like to bring a 2 in 1 with me. I bought a 2 in 1 alarm that is battery operated and has an on/off button so I can turn it off on the plane. However, I know ideally it should be screwed to the wall/ceiling but I cannot do this in a place that isnt my own. If I leave it high up on shelf on it´s side aganst a wall in a common area would this be ok?

Hi, I am looking at buying an existing cafe Bar business bottom floor 20 covers , single staircase up 1 level to another room 20 covers can I use the main entrance to street level as fire exit.? Thanks.

Hi my heat detector has gone off, despite turning it off at the mains it still persists in going off. Is there anything I can do.

The seems no systematic/designed solution ,to stop smoke passing through most fire-rated door hinges: between the leaves; through the spaces between the leafs and the knuckle (see white wire in .jpg below); around the knuckle. I can't find a fire-rated smoke seal for hinges and can only imagine a fire-rated adhesive foam - similar to a window draught excluder strip. BTW please, how far should the knuckle or its pin best be positioned from the jambs?

Trying to establish around retro fitting smoke control in old buildings. I have buildings where we have POVs and i do see the need to change these to AOVs as this was the standard of the day. My question is where you have a three story, two staircase buildings. Both lobbied and balcony access to both. Is there any requirement to install window opening on the stairs for the Fire service to manual vent the stairs. Present arrangement has no smoke control. my arguement is this is how it was built, plus two staircases so if one is compromised you can turn hour back and use the alternative. smoke is also not going risk the means of escape as it is not an enlcosed corridor to the stairs as its balcony access to both stairs. Any thoughts. Purpose built flats has a case study for 6 storey building scenario but with enclosed protected corridor and no lobby. Which i can understand the logic of smoke control as its not lobbied.

Sounds like your friend has failed to meet the first legal requirement - that of a fire risk assessment, which would answer your question. See here for advice on the law https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-your-small-non-domestic-premises-safe-from-fire Domestic detection isn't usually permitted in commercial premises or for where commercial & domestic premises need to evacuate together, if there is a 60 minute fire resistant ceiling between shop & flat there may be no need to have linked alarms.

Do FB locks need to be used for electrical intake and meter cupboards within common areas and is there any guidance on this thanks

Refer to BS 8214: 2016 Timber-based Fire Door Assemblies - Code of practice. This guidance documents states that gaps should be 2mm min to 4mm max for optimum fire resistance performance. You don't say whether these doors require smoke protection, in which case this type of seal may provide a solution. Unsealed contact of the door leaf with the rebate stop of the door frame is insufficient in terms of optimum fire performance and restricted smoke spread.

Domestic smoke alarms are not for use in a commercial premises. What does the fire risk assessment say?