All Activity

I assume they mean an illuminating sign and siren to warn of 'fire shutter closing' often included in modern purpose built kits, sometimes missing from older set ups or those assembled using standard shutter parts. The requirement for warnings may be in the powered shutter standard BS EN 13241-1:2003 (I don't have a copy) plus some form of warning would be likely under The Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996 Just because it wasn't mentioned before doesn't mean it shouldn't have been!

Thanks very much for your reply Anthony, much appreciated information. Colin

Thank you!

What exactly does the FRA say? Is it about the panel or the rating of the shutter

Check the original as built fire strategy as office doors do not usually need to be fire rated (except dead ends, high risk areas etc). It may be that at some point in time someone has put fire signage on the doors Protected corridors 2.24 A corridor serving as part of the means of escape in any of the following circumstances should be a protected corridor. a. Every corridor that serves bedrooms b. Every dead-end corridor (excluding recesses and extensions a maximum of 2m deep, as shown in Diagrams 2.7 and 2.8). c. Any corridor shared by two or more occupancies (paragraph 2.17). Enclosure of corridors that are not protected corridors 2.25 If a corridor is used for a means of escape but is not a protected corridor, even though the enclosing partitions may have no fire resistance, both of the following should be met to inhibit the spread of smoke. a. Partitions should continue to the soffit of the structural floor above, or to a suspended ceiling. b. Openings into rooms from the corridor should be fitted with doors, which do not need to be fire doorsets. Open planning will not inhibit the spread of smoke, but occupants can become aware of a fire quickly.

We have a fire shutter that activates via the alarm going off, have had it serviced regularly with no issues previously, and has been inspected during the recent FRA. A new company has taken the servicing contract, and has sent a quote through on the basis of the service visit for "fire shutter warning panels". This has never been raised previously, and I am struggling to find any relevant sections in any fire relegations. Can anyone shed any light on this, As I am at a loss as to whether this is required for a serving hatch. Thanks.

Hi Neil, Thanks for your response. So yes this is what I was thinking myself but we then have conflicting issues. Accreditation says replace doors as NFR Site are worried they will be responsible should a fire happen and they know they are NFR (Large costs of new doors are panic) Would we hold responsibility? If we carried out intrusive tests how do we move forward in explaining this may be ok? (I presume this would be us stating we assume this would stand 30mins?) Does a Fire Risk Assessor work with us on this for site? How can we sign of compliance on our part and who is the responsible person for this at the end of the day? Hope I'm kind of clear in explaining the above. Your advice is much appreciated. Stu

Q : do we need to replace domestic twin & earth cabling to these detectors with fire proof/resistant wiring ? If cable failure would cause the AOV to fail safe to the open position then no, otherwise yes Q : is there a legal requirement for an AOV or can we convert to a MOV ? No, if the existing installation is an AOV you can't make something worse than original, just equal or better Q : is there a legal requirement for signage in this single staircase, single exit, less than 9m run scenario ? No requirement for fire exit signage, no requirement for floor and flat numbering if an existing building (but good practice), fire instructions notice required near entrance or on notice board, etc

If you actually need to upgrade at all (often not actually required in smaller existing blocks as backed up by official guidance) then you should be going for combined intumescent & smoke seals. (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fire-safety-england-regulations-2022-fire-door-guidance/fire-safety-england-regulations-2022-fire-door-guidance) Costs are down to the individual leases & agreements for the block - front doors are usually the flat owner, the meter cupboards more of a grey area

Unfortunately Building Control are getting less helpful and less flexible than before, often they require a Chartered or Incorporated Fire Engineer to author any strategy that varies from the norm and for the cost of that you may as well have upgraded your heritage doors!

Make some intrusive surveys of a sample percentage of the 40 doors. If the cores are the same as fire doors, it may be possible to retain them and upgrade as necessary. "NFR" on a sticker on top of the door doesn't mean the core is unsuitable, it may be the same core as the fire doors.

Good afternoon, We have come across 6 Doors on site which wasn't picked up by another company surveying the building. Doors have Fire Door signage and all smoke seals installed. O&M's have been provided for these 6 doors so can confirm all Non Fire Rated. (Stickers on top of door) These doors are 54mm thick and on an escape corridor on the Ground floor. Small office behind each door. Furthermore we have found another 34 doors that are the same but these do not have Stickers on the top confirming what door they are. There are no O&M's for these doors. Obviously the 6 doors would need changing to regain the certification across site. In regards to the other doors what options do we have? Do these all need to be replaced as this would be an extortionate cost for site that may not have the budget for. Or is that irrelevant and need replacing. If no stickers were found then all these would be assumed "Nominal Doors"? which is the current situation. Can any of these doors just have remedial work carried out to bring up to standard without O&M documentation? Thanks, Stu - (Always Learning)

We have recently had a FRA on a single staircase over 11m (but below18m) block of flats. We are told the sounders need to be removed for a 'stay put' strategy but smoke detectors retained. Q : do we need to replace domestic twin & earth cabling to these detectors with fire proof/resistant wiring ? Q : is there a legal requirement for an AOV or can we convert to a MOV ? Q : is there a legal requirement for signage in this single staircase, single exit, less than 9m run scenario ? Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

Without knowing the building it’s impossible to answer, but as a rule of thumb, if it is possible for smoke to affect the escape route then there should be smoke seals. The cost difference between smoke and not smoke is negligible. The who is responsible for the cost is a matter for the tenancy agreement and is not a fire safety issue, but ultimately, I suspect that it will fall on the leaseholder

Hello a recent fire risk assessment requires fire seals around individual apartment exit doors and 3 hinges,in a purpose built block of apartments 3 and 4 storey high,do the seals need to be both smoke and intumescent or just intumescent seals,and is it the managing agent or the apartment owner liable for the cost of fitting Also the electricity meter boxes are situated in fibre glass fronted boxes on the landings on escape routes,i can understand these being replaced with fire proof ones as meters do seem to catch fire quite often, in fact a neighbour was re-homed after her meter caught fire in her old house. Again who is responsible for the replacement cost of a new meter box covers, managing agent or leaseholder as both the front doors and meter boxes are fixtures in the block. We all pay a service charge for repairs etc,so should this pay for the costs detailed above.

My local Building Control won’t discuss until an application is made. Having read more on the subject, it seems the internal staircase is deemed the primary escape route and therefore needs to be fully protected whereas the external one is seen as a secondary means of escape. The irony is that, because the garden is sloped, the external staircase only has 6 steps before you’re on the ground. That’s the route I’d be taking if there was a fire on the floors below.

Thank you AnthonyB, that’s very helpful. I’ll see if Building Regs will engage before I do anything.

Real trees are only a particular problem if not watered regularly - also it's whats on the tree and around it that need to be considered (ignition source from lighting on the tree, flammable decorations, etc) as well as where you are wanting to put it. It's a risk based approach for each venue

The guide doesn't address your layout as it assumes protection of the stair rather than the greater expense of an external stair unless you are a storey higher than you are. You could argue to Building Control that the stair is over and above the requirements and would compensate for an unprotected stair as the upper floor isn't relying on it for safe escape, after all Approved Document B isn't law & if you can show an alternative approach provides equal safety they are meant to accept it- they an only say no

Hello. I have a two story house plus a loft conversion which is currently only accessible via an external metal staircase. I’d like to have an internal staircase installed from the first floor up. As I understand it, with a third floor, all doors on the first and ground floor which lead to the exit (front door) need to be fire rated. Does that apply even though there is already a means of escape from the top floor? All the doors are Edwardian panelled doors and the prospect of them needing new hinges, intumescent strips and fire retardant paint is putting me off. Thanks for any advice.

Hello Wise People What's the general opinion of having real or artificial trees in schools this Christmas? I've got a number of schools who get them 'gifted' each year, so want to ensure that the right controls are in place to reduce any hazards, or should I be advising artificial versions to be purchased? Any advice greatly appreciated as always. Regards Jo

What height/number of floors is the building and what evacuation strategy does it have? Depending on these factors there may be a legal requirement for them to assess and take reasonable measures in relation to your fire risk & evacuation needs from next year.

https://www.lorientuk.com/products/architectural-seals

Thanks for your reply Mike.